R16TS Valve Sping positioning
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Thread: R16TS Valve Sping positioning

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    Default R16TS Valve Sping positioning

    Here's one for the R16TS Cylinder head assemblers.

    On page B-71 of the R1151 Renault WORKSHOP Manual it quotes: "" Fit the valve springs with the larger coil gap down towards the cylinder head""

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    I was having this job done by our local Engine Engineering Company as they have all the bells and whistles to do the job but after I picked it up I noticed they fitted the valve springs with the larger coil gap facing up towards the Valve spring retainer""

    When I brought the subject up they said that they always fit valve springs with the smaller coil gap down towards the cylinder head""

    So, do I believe the experience from the Engine Engineering Company OR believe what the Renault Workshop manual says?

    R16TS Valve Sping positioning-dscn1956.jpg

    Appreciate your comments.

    Cheers Phil

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    COL
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    Hi Phil

    The info you have there has a misprint. The smaller gap goes to the cylinder head, trust the guys at Engineering company

    I also checked a couple of factory manuals that I have here and they say the smaller gap goes to the bottom.

    It has to do with the spring acting as at a variable rate, and aids soft closing of the valve.
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    Regards Col

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    Hi Col.
    I can hardly believe that, such an important instruction written in for a purpose.

    OK, I'll get them to leave it alone.

    Thanks for coming back so quick.
    Cheers mate
    Phil

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    COL
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    In the factory manuals that I have there are pics showing the smaller spacing at the head, does your info have a pic showing the same as the wording.

    Unfortunately there are many technical manuals with small errors, always good to check if not sure.
    Regards Col

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    Agreed, a lot of solid info here on AF when it's needed.

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    No Col, no picture is shown. I'm glad I asked. I'll be at the Engineering Co. first thing Monday Morning.

    Thanks again

    Phil



    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    In the factory manuals that I have there are pics showing the smaller spacing at the head, does your info have a pic showing the same as the wording.

    Unfortunately there are many technical manuals with small errors, always good to check if not sure.

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    Yes agree. I have met some great blokes on AF. It is so good to have experience at our finger tips. I guess other car sites experience similar, we just have that common love of cars that keep us going.

    Cheers
    Phil


    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    Agreed, a lot of solid info here on AF when it's needed.

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    Col. Just me, but I like to follow up things so I Googled the physics of springs at Murdoch University and guess what, see below.

    There is heaps more on harmonics etc. but I'm thoroughly convinced now, small spring gap toward Cylinder head.

    EXTRACT:
    In engine, there is valve and the valve spring. If you have ever look at the valve spring before, then you will notice that one end has its coil closer together than the other end. So a valve spring is a kind of progressive spring. In almost all engine repair manual I read, the instruction is always say that the end of the valve spring which has closer coil should be facing down (i.e. closer to the valve).

    Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...e-down.553482/

    Cheers
    Phil
    Last edited by R8philSA; 22nd July 2017 at 01:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi Phil
    The info you have there has a misprint. The smaller gap goes to the cylinder head, trust the guys at Engineering company
    I also checked a couple of factory manuals that I have here and they say the smaller gap goes to the bottom.
    It has to do with the spring acting as at a variable rate, and aids soft closing of the valve.
    Hi Phil
    This is certainly the normal recommendation for all cars I have seen.
    As Col says misprints or mis-interpretation in a translation from the original factory text, and is not as uncommon as you might hope

    I have seen several things over the years that were a mystery in French car manuals in English. Later when I spoke to French mechanics they explained the original texts !! Hmmmm. One simple one was an instruction to apply a force to the front wheels when doing an alignment. Actually the real instruction was to put a set weight over the front wheels in the boot of the rear engined models.
    Jaahn

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Col. Just me, but I like to follow up things so I Googled the physics of springs at Murdoch University and guess what, see below.

    There is heaps more on harmonics etc. but I'm thoroughly convinced now, small spring gap toward Cylinder head.

    EXTRACT:
    In engine, there is valve and the valve spring. If you have ever look at the valve spring before, then you will notice that one end has its coil closer together than the other end. So a valve spring is a kind of progressive spring. In almost all engine repair manual I read, the instruction is always say that the end of the valve spring which has closer coil should be facing down (i.e. closer to the valve).

    Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...e-down.553482/

    Cheers
    Phil
    Thats a far better explanation than my one line effort.

    So any variable rate spring the closer coils go to the fixed mounting and the more open coils go to the moving part.
    Last edited by COL; 22nd July 2017 at 10:22 AM.
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    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    .

    So any variable rate spring the closer coils go to the fixed mounting and the more open coils go to the moving part.
    This is correct, as one point has been missed is the inertia of the valve spring to get it moving.

    If the tight coils are up the top this is a greater mass to accelerate from stopped. This is NOT what you want.

    Eibach make the top valve springs by far, good reading at

    Valve Springs - Eibach Springs

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    I came across a sectioned 6 cylinder Holden engine at a Tech School recruitment display. First thing my jaundiced eyes saw was a couple of 'upside down' valve springs.
    I mentioned it to one of the attendants who called over his off siders. I left them in animated discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Col. Just me, but I like to follow up things so I Googled the physics of springs at Murdoch University and guess what, see below.

    There is heaps more on harmonics etc. but I'm thoroughly convinced now, small spring gap toward Cylinder head.

    EXTRACT:
    In engine, there is valve and the valve spring. If you have ever look at the valve spring before, then you will notice that one end has its coil closer together than the other end. So a valve spring is a kind of progressive spring. In almost all engine repair manual I read, the instruction is always say that the end of the valve spring which has closer coil should be facing down (i.e. closer to the valve).

    Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...e-down.553482/

    Cheers
    Phil
    Very impressive Phil. Thanks to all who contributed. I'm happy now as I've learned something today that I didn't know.

    Cheers

    John
    JohnW

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    Yes John.
    That's what I love about Restoration, so much to learn along the way. I don't mind asking questions as there a heap of guys out there that have been down the road I'm taking so I respect their input. The Froggers have helped me heaps over the years both with knowledge and bits and pieces.
    I'm just starting the Barn Find 807-03 engine build and loving every second of it. Just love assembly of engines, I guess after 20+ years in the RAAF as an Aircraft Engine Fitter I have it in my blood.
    Cheers mate
    Phil
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    There'd be a fair bit of your blood in some assemblies too I imagine. ROFL

    I presume getting the softer end of the spring at the bottom means you have the momentum of the whole system acting there, rather than having some of it "inactive" underneath? Ignoring inertial forces, I can't see it would make the slightest difference, but add dynamics and it all changes.

    How have you addressed the camshaft/follower failure risk issue, out of interest? Seems a largely unpredictable problem - see Alan Moore's posts over the years or email him.
    JohnW

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    Well John, to tell you the truth, I highly respect Alan's experience and believe all that I read about the cam issues. I'm hoping that my engine will run for a couple of years before the cam wears out so I can get the thrill of it out of my system.
    I never took this restoration on to build an everlasting car but rather to achieve a reasonable running car which looks reasonable and I can have a heap of fun in.
    I'm 72 this Christmas and have some fairly complex health issues so I'm making the very best of time ahead. I dream of 'BARNIE' being finished and giving this car a good thrash around Mallala Motor Sport Park, Collingrove Hillclimb Track Barossa Valley and a few other local places. My ultimate dream is to put 'BARNIE' in the Geelong Revival for the sprints and hill climb, hopefully November 2018.
    I'm taking every precaution I can in the restoration of the engine and running gear so if 'he' blows up, then I resort to my mechanical outlook on life being: "Man made it, man fixes it"
    As I said before I get the greatest thrill from finding something broken and making it look and go like new.
    Cheers mate, have a great week.
    Phil




    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    There'd be a fair bit of your blood in some assemblies too I imagine. ROFL

    I presume getting the softer end of the spring at the bottom means you have the momentum of the whole system acting there, rather than having some of it "inactive" underneath? Ignoring inertial forces, I can't see it would make the slightest difference, but add dynamics and it all changes.

    How have you addressed the camshaft/follower failure risk issue, out of interest? Seems a largely unpredictable problem - see Alan Moore's posts over the years or email him.

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    Default cam followers !

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    There'd be a fair bit of your blood in some assemblies too I imagine. ROFL
    --------
    How have you addressed the camshaft/follower failure risk issue, out of interest? Seems a largely unpredictable problem - see Alan Moore's posts over the years or email him.
    Hi
    I have not heard about or read about the 16 problems mentioned above, but when we were playing with 8/10/G engines back in the day they had some problems in this manner too when you hotted them up.

    We had some interaction with an experienced cam grinder to get some suitable grinds done for us and he looked at some followers for us. They were flat ground from the factory on the cam contact end, but some were a bit convex and some a bit concave and most flattish. The grinder said that was the problem and they should all be reground with a proper convex radius. He always recommended all new followers should be reground properly before use. It solved our problems we were having and the random failures stopped.

    The theory is easy and well known years ago. The followers must rotate to even the wear or they stop and wear a groove and go through the hardening. Failure follows soon after this as the cam get chewed up then too. So since then I have always refaced the followers on every engine I rebuilt even if they looked OK. Easy checked; you take one follower and hold the straight side of one against the end of another. Look at the contact into the light and it is immediately obvious if it is flat or convex or concave. Check them all and see ??
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 23rd July 2017 at 11:18 PM.

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    Hi Jaahn. Totally agree. The cam grinder I went to would not grind my cam unless I gave him the cam followers to put the convex radial grind on. He to told me about the rotation of the followers being a must for good cam wear.
    Cheers
    Phil
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    16TS cam followers..... These engines are great BUT there is a long-known issue with cam lobes and followers. Ours did well over 200,000 km with no trouble, and it is by no means common, but certainly happens.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R16TS Valve Sping positioning-cam-follower-failure.jpg  
    JohnW

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    I have had problems with modified 16TS camshafts or cam followers over many years and have experimented along the way. The ones in the picture above are mine that were hardfaced and I think convex ground with approx a 2thou radius. These were used with a 25/65 cam with 390 thou lift at the valve, using standard 17 TS valve springs. ie a towing or mild upgrade cam. Yes it was certainly noisy.

    I do wonder with the refacing of cam followers that the case hardening is cut/ground away to reveal softer material on the face. I am going to use a new set of followers next time. I have seen stock 16TS and 17TS cams with degradation, but the corresponding follower is undamaged. I believe that Renault actually offset the cam lobe to the follower to not need the convex on the follower to make it turn, and as best as I have seen Renault only ground their followers flat.

    I know of others that have had great success, and no failure with their modified 807 engines. Some of my modified engines have gone beyond 50 000Klm, and some only 2000, and I am hard pressed to work out what was different.
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    Hoped you'd see the thread Alan! All well we trust.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    I'm hoping that my engine will run for a couple of years before the cam wears out so I can get the thrill of it out of my system.
    I never took this restoration on to build an everlasting car but rather to achieve a reasonable running car which looks reasonable and I can have a heap of fun in.
    I dream of 'BARNIE' being finished and giving this car a good thrash around Mallala Motor Sport Park, Collingrove Hillclimb Track Barossa Valley and a few other local places. My ultimate dream is to put 'BARNIE' in the Geelong Revival for the sprints and hill climb, hopefully November 2018.

    Phil
    What was wrong with the cam and followers that came out of the engine? Given your planned limited useage, and I expect the person that built the car had some ability, why regrind it if it is OK. Looking at the engine it would appear it would already have been fitted with an improved cam.
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    Hi Alan.
    The original cam in the old engine had 2 teeth broken of the distributor drive and corresponding distributor drive shaft.
    I was lucky enough to get another standard R16TS camshaft from Melbourne and I had that camshaft reground to the original camshaft specs. that came with the barn find. The camshaft that came with the barn find was a rally camshaft and I liked the set up on it.
    The distributor and Weber carburetors also have been set up to feed the camshaft.
    Cheers mate
    Phil




    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    What was wrong with the cam and followers that came out of the engine? Given your planned limited useage, and I expect the person that built the car had some ability, why regrind it if it is OK. Looking at the engine it would appear it would already have been fitted with an improved cam.

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    Sorry, I had forgotten about the broken drive teeth. The engines do respond well to a cam upgrade and a bit of compression. The heads and valves give much less of an improvement in Hp given the dollars involved.

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    Hi
    Interesting thread ! I do not want to hijack it but will mention something just for completeness on the subject of hot cams and followers.
    It is quite possible to find the cam follower is not a large enough diameter, if the cam lift is increased a lot. We had that problem on the 1108 G motor and after solving the follower problem, we then moved to another type of problem. Cam grinder to the rescue again and we bored out the follower holes in the block and fitted bigger followers. As I recall they were actually grey Holden items ??? Perhaps cut a bit shorter in length.
    Just for the information of less experienced tuners who think there is an easy path to all this "free" power
    Jaahn

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