This Renault 12/15/17 Competition Manual
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Default This Renault 12/15/17 Competition Manual

    I find traces of it all over the web.

    Competition
    renault gordini camshafts
    The 15/17 Register - 15/17 Suspension Set-up Basics

    ..but does anyone have a copy I can read / buy / borrow?

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    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

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  2. #2
    COL
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    I have a French version at home, I got my copy off of Ebay.
    Regards Col

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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah, I'll have another proper search.

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    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    actually cheated and emailed Reno Aus. They should be laughing in the office right about.... now.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    HAR HAR!!

    I got a reply,

    Good Morning Daniel,

    Thank you for your email and I apologize for the delayed response.

    I have passed your email onto one of my colleges who will have a look for you.

    I will email you as soon as I have any answers for you.


    Kind Regards

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I am surprised Simon didn't come in. I am pretty sure he would either have a copy or know where to find one.

    Failing that, Col has already given you a suggestion. You find these manuals on ebay most of the time.

    My suggestion is to take it easy and try to get your hands on a R12G specific manual (MR153). That'll give you a starting point. Get yourself a 12G engine and see if you want any more than that.

    Better still, get yourself a 17TL engine (this should be a lot easier), try that and then see if you want to move up. That alone basically doubles your power.

    A 12G engine more than triples your power. Are you sure you are ready for that?

    One step at a time makes it easier to figure out the next step.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Wait there were different comp manuals for the models, ie a 12, 15 and a 17 one?

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    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    No idea.

    I do know there is a comp manual for 12G.

    Given the engine is the same, I don't think there was any point in having another manual for the 17.

    The 15 was not campaigned in competitions as far as I know.

    Even the 17 didn't race that much. Which makes sense given that the 12 was pretty much the same car but with a lighter chassis.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Wait there were different comp manuals for the models, ie a 12, 15 and a 17 one?
    No just the one but aimed at each model. I have PM'ed you.

  10. #10
    COL
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    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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    1973 Alpine A110

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    <snip>
    A 12G engine more than triples your power. Are you sure you are ready for that?
    <snip>
    Hmm! he might be. when my 4CV was modified to become the 4CVG, that involved more than 5 times the original power. (Mind you the base 4CV was hardly a ball of fire, so 5+ times that is hardly in 911 Turbo territory. )

    Curiously, the (warm 1.4) engine in my Djet was built (on the instructions of a previous owner) according to the specifications developed by Renault Australia when they were contemplating a sub R12G warm Virage. A prototype was built but the project wasn't proceeded with. It's a sweet motor (torquey but will rev out) & copes nicely with the Djet's 650 kg.

    cheers! Peter

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I am not familiar with the 4CV in any way. But if you went from something like 20HP to 100 or similar, I would say you're not doing too shabby. How heavy is the 4CV?

    Also, keep in mind the RWD Renaults were much better balanced than the FWD cars back in the seventies. I have driven both types, and I can say that the R10 felt a lot more controllable than the 12 at the limit. Not sure why, but even going in a straight line the R10 is reassuring (maybe falsely, but it is). I never felt afraid of drifting the R10, but I did in the 12. From memory, the regie plans of replacing the 8G with the 12G in competitions hit a snag with the understeer they could never quite dial out entirely.

    Modern FWD cars have ironed out the problems after more than 50 years of perseverance, but a 12 is oh well, no Clio.

    Perhaps Dave Cavanagh can chip in a bit about driving a 12G. I remember a very good account of his I found some time ago.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    The 12G was a car made for racing/rally work.
    The 17G (or 17TS) was more a boulevard cruiser not really expected to go on a track.

    Have a look at the South American R12 or Renault sites (Argentina & Columbia are probably the best).
    The 12 was in production and available there long after it was killed-off in France and the South Americans did off some performance versions, both official and bespoke.
    There is/was a lot of aftermarket performance equipment available.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    There was the race series for standard Renault 12's in Australia in the mid 1970's. There are some pics around if you google it, maybe even some video. They tended to fall onto their lids occasionally, especially at Amaroo Park. A mate of mine Nick Nedingham won it with part of the prize being a stint in Formula Renault in France. He also drove at Bathurst in the Chrysler works team.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Thanks for the ebay link :S I confess i had thought my ebay search was set to "world wide" alas it was not...

    Interest in the manual is just that of a curiosity, sounds like they would be interesting reading.

    Yes I have seen some images of the 12's in the 'New Start' series I think it was, complete with body roll that looked like they were driving on the door handles Looked like a hoot.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Ebay won't show you listings that don't explicitly include international shipping. There is a lot of stuff you don't have access to with an Oz membership. My advice is to register on ebay overseas (any Euro country you like but keep in mind some listings only offer "local pickup" simply because they didn't bother to change the default ebay setting or whatever or don't know their listing does not show outside their country so you might miss out on listings in France even with an UK membership for instance).

    You might even have difficulty creating an account on a foreign ebay site. Make sure you are logged out of any ebay/paypal sites before you try, otherwise your accounts will open automatically and won't let you create a new one.

    It's weird. Have a look on ebay fora for more detail. There's all sorts of tricks that make you wonder what the heck is ebay trying to do, restrict the internet?! But there is (still) a way to beat them.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 13th July 2017 at 01:31 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #17
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Ebay won't show you listings that don't explicitly include international shipping. There is a lot of stuff you don't have access to with an Oz membership. My advice is to register on ebay overseas (any Euro country you like but keep in mind some listings only offer "local pickup" simply because they didn't bother to change the default ebay setting or whatever or don't know their listing does not show outside their country so you might miss out on listings in France even with an UK membership for instance).

    You might even have difficulty creating an account on a foreign ebay site. Make sure you are logged out of any ebay/paypal sites before you try, otherwise your accounts will open automatically and won't let you create a new one.

    It's weird. Have a look on ebay fora for more detail. There's all sorts of tricks that make you wonder what the heck is ebay trying to do, restrict the internet?! But there is (still) a way to beat them.
    All I do is just use the URL for the Ebay of the country I want to look at, when buying on that countries Ebay I just use my Australian Ebay user name and password and all is fine, you can do everything on the international sites that you can do on the Australian Ebay site Ebay .

    The other country Ebay sites use to be easy to find when they were on the bottom of the home page, but now they have been moved and are a little bit hidden.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Doing that will not give you access to those listings as I mentioned above. You can see such listings using google, but then you won't be able to ask questions/contact seller or buy.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Doing that will not give you access to those listings as I mentioned above. You can see such listings using google, but then you won't be able to ask questions/contact seller or buy.
    I only have one Ebay user name. Seems to work for me. I never sign out of Ebay.com.au but have to sign into the Ebay.fr or what ever country I use.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    You could consider using Opera as browser and enabling the free VPN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I am not familiar with the 4CV in any way. But if you went from something like 20HP to 100 or similar, I would say you're not doing too shabby. How heavy is the 4CV?

    Also, keep in mind the RWD Renaults were much better balanced than the FWD cars back in the seventies. I have driven both types, and I can say that the R10 felt a lot more controllable than the 12 at the limit. Not sure why, but even going in a straight line the R10 is reassuring (maybe falsely, but it is). I never felt afraid of drifting the R10, but I did in the 12. From memory, the regie plans of replacing the 8G with the 12G in competitions hit a snag with the understeer they could never quite dial out entirely.

    Modern FWD cars have ironed out the problems after more than 50 years of perseverance, but a 12 is oh well, no Clio.

    Perhaps Dave Cavanagh can chip in a bit about driving a 12G. I remember a very good account of his I found some time ago.
    I have fanged various rear-engined Renaults in various states of modification & two R12/Virages (standard & mildly modified in the suspension). I share your preference for the former. That said, simply fitting R17 TL anti-roll bars to the Virages & playing with front/rear variations of tyre sizes & pressures made for a fairly wieldy beastie though the twisties. However the steering is always corrupted by acting on the sole driven wheels. I never liked that & the problem would be exacerbated by more power. One of my toys is a warm Moke 1275 (now 1330) & my greatest objection to it is steering via driven wheels.

    Were I to be going down the path of developing a "driving toy" version of the R12, I would stick with the 1.4 & mildly modify it in the normal way to get about 40-45 kw at the wheels. I'd fit the R17TL bars, keep wheels with standard offset & use 175/70-13 Conti EcoContact3 tyres. I'd then play with tyre pressures to get good turn in crispness & the rear easily throttle-steerable & that would be it. Track cars are something else of course.

    The 4CV began life with about 600kg & that was how mine was when I bought it in January 1968. Various modifications made to it to have it how it now is have increased weight & my guess is about 750-800kg. It has 65kw at the wheels (on that dyno, on that day).

    cheers! Peter

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