Electronic Ignition Ducellier Dizzies
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    Member JohnnyAfrica12G's Avatar
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    Default Electronic Ignition Ducellier Dizzies

    Hi Peeps, I'm investigating some ignition options for the 12G. In the early 70's the R267 was converted to an E20 English Mobelec which was still in it and functional some 30 odd years ago, I still have this and the pick up is still in the dizzy.

    I'm hearing very mixed reports on the modern programmable units - this is scaring me. I have no inclination to return to the old two piece Ducel points but are wondering what might be out there that is bulletproof, consistent and a fair cost to install. The 160HP used to fire quite well but would ping (head too thin).

    The carbs will be fully reco'd but I do not want a pig to drive and be able to run on 98 octane fuel.

    So time for me to see what has been working in our local Reno community? It would be great if the product is well supported locally..

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    Thank you

    Johnny G

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I fitted a Hot Spark kit to my R8 Ducellier about 5 years ago. Great result. It doesn't do away with vacuum and centrifugal advance/retard mechanisms, which need to be functional, but dwell and timing never change. I'd certainly endorse it. I fitted the coil they recommended at the same time. Fitting was more fiddly than expected, as I had to shave down something so the magnets cleared the Hall Effect switch block.

    I have a programmable 123 distributor on the CX, and it is pretty good too. Rather more expensive than the Hot Spark but heaps more sophisticated.

    Depends what you want, doesn't it....
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    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Johnny,
    I have worked with a number of ignitions on street cars, and come up with one that works for me and my customers. Megajolt.

    If you do it yourself it is easy and cheap for what you get. Fully programmable. And it need no local agents.

    Graeme's R8 Gordini Rebuild !!! #36

    https://www.autosportlabs.com/produc...jolt-ignition/

    Trigger-Wheels

    Above are suppliers of the parts you need. PM me with a email address and I will supply what you need from each.

    One thing is best for your 12G is that you convert to a crankshaft pulley at the timing chain end. Gives extremely accurate ignition timing. And is very easy for your crank sensor. Means you are only running the water pump off the cam, as alternator now can go to crank pulley.

    Timing Pulley for Trigger Wheel
    This is what has been done on Sam’s A110 841 block. It has a timing cover with a oil seal hole for the timing pulley.
    Picture of the assembly shows the pulley hub (B), prior to being bored and keyway cut, and the trigger wheel adapter (A). “E” is the substitute trigger wheel in 6mm plywood, just to set up where the crank sensor will be. Minus the pulley, which bolts on top of what is seem.

    The separate parts picture :
    “A” is the trigger wheel adaptor from the back, with a locating shoulder to sit on the pulley hub (B).
    “B” is the pulley hub now bored through and the yellow circle is the keyway cut full length (easier to machine). The keyway is indexed to one of the bolt holes for timing set up.

    “C” is the drive pulley, this one has only the rear belt groove remaining, as the front groove was machined off.
    “D” is the shouldered washer that will hold the pulley hub to the crank. I am not sure if the crank end is longer than the 807, as I can remember making a spacer collar for my off-road motor as the timing sprocket was not a tight fit on the crank end, and it seemed the same size as the 841 crank.
    You will notice the red circles, and the holes are for indexing all the assembled parts on the roll pin seen on the hub.
    When I get the trigger wheel, it will be drilled to correspond to the 6 threaded holes on “A” the trigger adapter, and index for correct timing of the trigger wheel.

    I like the trigger wheel at the back of the pulley as it is out of the way of working on the V-belt for the alternator, mounted at the timing cover end.

    Electronic Ignition Ducellier Dizzies-crank-pulley.jpgElectronic Ignition Ducellier Dizzies-dscn0080.jpgElectronic Ignition Ducellier Dizzies-crank-pulley-2.jpg


    Some pics I have not yet taken off the camera. As i am doing A110/1600 electrics and Megajolt write up now.

    Ray
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    Ray geckoeng

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Has anyone added a flying magnet to the water pump (I assume that runs at cam speed) in order to trigger?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Has anyone added a flying magnet to the water pump (I assume that runs at cam speed) in order to trigger?
    Hello Bowie,
    No, the water pump pulley is usually smaller than the crank pulley and probably larger than the cam pulley so it doesn't run at the same speed as either (runs faster then the crank and slower than the cam). The water pump is designed to run at the optimum speed to cool the engine.
    Having the timing run off a belt-driven device is very dodgy. If the belt slips or you replace the belt the timing will have to be reset.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

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    Member JohnnyAfrica12G's Avatar
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    Hi Ray, firstly thank you for taking the time to provide high quality information on this, due to originality I will not be able to run with the R15/17TL type timing cover but totally agree this is the most accurate and efficient way to do this on the 807. down the track I will build a Patrick Tambay Monte Carlo copy, this will be the track we go down for that one.

    So I'm left with dizzy based options, Ray what are your thoughts on my remaining options?

    Thanks again.

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    Member JohnnyAfrica12G's Avatar
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    agree totally - never off belts...

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    Thanks John, I will check them out
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    I think we've had this convo but if you just want to replace points as JohnW mentions, your options are endless.
    To be able to do dwell and timing, to retain the closest to original, look at the 123 or 123tune options. They work out to be around $500-600. $550 from the Australian agent last time I enquired. This is a solution fully incorporated into a new replacement dizzy.

    The 123 has around 12 in built "programmes" to choose from. Your better option may be 123tune, which is similar but allows a USB cable to plugged in and enter your own programme and update at will. I'm pretty sure they do a version for the 16 engine as brettr had one at one stage. The programmes (advance curves) on the 123 may not suit you as they are for the lesser Sierra type engines generally, but worth a look. When I tried, 123 wouldn't release what the curves actually were as they were worried about people using their IP.
    KB


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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah I thought the water pump was driven directly from the cam, I see it is via first a belt

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/att...on-trid901.jpg

    So pardon the ignorance, the larger pulley on the right hand side of the engine, that's driven by the cam?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    I think we've had this convo but if you just want to replace points as JohnW mentions, your options are endless.
    To be able to do dwell and timing, to retain the closest to original, look at the 123 or 123tune options. They work out to be around $500-600. $550 from the Australian agent last time I enquired. This is a solution fully incorporated into a new replacement dizzy.

    The 123 has around 12 in built "programmes" to choose from. Your better option may be 123tune, which is similar but allows a USB cable to plugged in and enter your own programme and update at will. I'm pretty sure they do a version for the 16 engine as brettr had one at one stage. The programmes (advance curves) on the 123 may not suit you as they are for the lesser Sierra type engines generally, but worth a look. When I tried, 123 wouldn't release what the curves actually were as they were worried about people using their IP.
    That's right I think - there is/was a Sierra 123 but it isn't set for any of the rear-engine applications and the one person I know who bought one had no end of unhappiness with it. I think the 123Tune would overcome that problem (that is what I have on the Citroen), if it meets the originality test. Certainly the Hot Spark kit inside the distributor works well and looks original even if it lacks the "charm" of points and capacitor! (All of those brands of Hall Effect kits that are available look the same to me on pictures!).

    Geckoeng's Megajolt installations look excellent.

    Cheers
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    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    I have installed a Hot Spark kit to my '79 504. I think it's been on for 2 years now. Instantaneous starts, hot and cold. It used to catch me out earlier on. My brain wouldn't accept the prompt start and I would hit the key again!
    Like John I had to employ some judicious filing during installation. The 'magnet' wheel was fouling the vacuum advance rod quadrant.
    A touch with the file put it right.
    Servicing being no more than a drop of oil on the felt wick under the rotor.
    A simple Hall Effect system. The original coil and rotor are retained, the condenser is discarded. Rev counter still works. Ignition timing can only be done with a light or my preference, a vacuum gauge.

    Oh, $70 from the UK.

    The set-up suits my type of motoring my go-faster days are gone. Be interesting to see how it worked under race conditions?

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    Fellow Frogger! G4ME's Avatar
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    Hi John,
    I had Pertronix on my 17 before I went the full Wolf kit. It worked well but I was running injection not carbies.
    I sourced it from a very helpful bloke via Ebay in the US. Happy to put you in touch if you wanna go down that path.
    BTW Andrew Davis fitted it for me.
    Cheers...Paul
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    Me may need to discuss this further over an ale......
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    Whichever unit you decide to use, just make sure that it won't affect the operation of the tacho.
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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Ah I thought the water pump was driven directly from the cam, I see it is via first a belt

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/att...on-trid901.jpg

    So pardon the ignorance, the larger pulley on the right hand side of the engine, that's driven by the cam?
    This is an 807 engine in what looks like a Lotus Europa.
    The large pulley on the right is bolted onto the camshaft end, not driven by the camshaft.
    The water pump is driven by the camshaft on this engine.
    Because the water pump is driven by the camshaft the pulley on the pump is much smaller than the pulley on the cam to speed it up.
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah! sorry hence my confusion. Not all 12g's have 807's. So you "could" run a hall effect senor of the back of an 807 water pump? From memory there was a little wheel that the larger pulley bolts too. If that's rotating at cam speed BAM!?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Johnny,
    I had a lot of trouble with the hall affect "Point" replacement. Some work well, but low battery or slightly high charge rate over heats the units, and they just stop. So many people have had problems with the ordinary "123" units, but the "123Tune" unit seems to have knocked all the bugs out of the system., and work consistently over a good period. And deal with Holland not the Oz agent. You will need to send a good distributor to them.

    Autosport Labs do make a unit for a 2cyl bike, and I am sure this could be made to work through a distributor with one coil. 72-2 trigger on the cam behind the water pump drive pulley, well hidden, and distributor only distributing spark, like a R5 Rennix unit. There are even guys that have put the trigger in the distributor and distribute spark as well. So a bit of creative thinking.

    Crank driven Electronic Ignition is the only way to go. I have built some very fancy Ducel distributors, with needle roller silver steel shafts and needle thrusts. With no play in the weights system, and infinitely adjustable advance curves, and none gave me the same accuracy of crank driven sensor.

    Ray
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    "When I tried, 123 wouldn't release what the curves actually were as they were worried about people using their IP"

    I have a table which gives the details of the advance curves if you want them. Am at work and they are on my other computer, so can't do it tonight, but can flick them to anybody who needs them if they PM me

    Andrew

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Another recommendation for the Pertronix system. 5 minutes to install and forget it's there. No problems ever, and I put these in all my cars (R12, R17TL, BMW2000, 2000CS), the first one about 20 years ago. Incidentally, I found the BMW and Renault units are identical (and my guess is if you don't have some outlandish dizzy they would all be the same so it doesn't even matter which one you buy). Doesn't affect anything else around the car, you just get rid of the dizzy condenser. Both the BMW and the Renault rev counters worked just as before. I think I paid about the same as mentioned above (70 bucks), and I think you can get them here in Oz (east coast somewhere if I remember correctly).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 8th April 2017 at 01:55 AM.
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Like above, I used the pertronix igniter kit in my R10 for over 10 years with now problems and did not need to modify the pieces to fit into the distributor. I also used the matching coil from them. The coil failed after around 12 years and was replaced with the same one. When I say failed, it still worked, but was leaking oil slightly.

    For other reasons, I replaced the pertronix pickup with an Accuspark one and retained the pertronix coil. I added the programmable Accuspark stealth unit. That's all still in the car working but I did replace the stealth unit as it failed early one, I suspect from heat as geckoeng says.
    KB


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    I have a Fuego Turbo and the A5L motor has been replaced with an 841 motor with R18 fuel injected head and Garret T3 water cooled turbo. Originally I installed a Motec computer but it was a failure (too old as it needed an old out of date computer to program it properly and it was keeping the injectors running and diluting the oil). I have since installed a Microtech system with 4 coils but have some questions about fitting the trigger wheel.

    Am I correct in assuming that the 841 motor runs counter clockwise as you face the motor?

    The trigger wheel is the 60-2 type (i.e. with 58 teeth). Once the sensor has been mounted and the crankshaft locked at TDC for cylinder 1 and the missing teeth is aligned to the sensor, how many teeth do I rotate the trigger wheel assuming in a counter clockwise direction? I am guessing 14 teeth??

    Has anyone had a bad experience with the Microtech product ( is commonly used on Mazda rotaries)?

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I have two old Motec M4 (10 Y.O.) that use a serial port laptop to communicate with them. Using USB to Serial adapters are not very successful. In my experience it will not matter where the missing teeth are in relation to the piston as you tell the ecu how many degrees this is before TDC. To get this accurate you can lock the advance on the ecu to say 15 degrees until the timing light is saying you have set in the right amount of degrees for the position of missing teeth. Motec call it CRip. My old Motecs will accept up to 719.9 degrees in this setting as it is picked up off the cam. No experience with Microtechs, but as you say the rotary guys love them.

    As part of making up fuel injection for my 807 engine in the 4CV, I have modified a Mitsubishi Magna distributor to work on my engine, although as Ray says above, even when making this as well as it can be done, a direct pick up off the crank will always be more accurate. It has a single cam TDC trigger and a second wheel with 4 teeth for the running. I am sure more teeth on the second wheel would give more accuracy, but it was good enough for Mitsubishi. The brand new Magna distributor was less than $60 landed. I will have to see how it turns out.

    I found that on my M10 engine in my BMW, with the cam trigger in the old distributor, with its timing moving enough, I think through cam twist and a bit of movement in the gears at high revs compared to my crank trigger wheel, to upset my Motec saying it was out of sync. I made a pickup to work off the front of the cam and it all became very steady. Once the motor has started the cam trigger can be disconnected, but of course you will need connect it again to start the motor.

    To replace points, I believe the Pertronix units have proven their worth, and I expect the other units, Hot Spark etc using the same principles would be equally as good in simple replacement of points.
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    Icon14 update on my 123 ignition experience

    Just an update on my experience with the 123 ignition.

    I was initially not best pleased with the unit and spent a fair bit of time rooting around the Internet and bugging fellow AFers for info re the dynamics of advance curves and engine performance. There was after all none in the 14 odd curves avaliable that were identical to any of those in my manuals. It took a while before it dawned on me that I was looking for was a setting that gave me reasonable performance or economy. I was after all buying an after market distributor and I could expect after market performance. The engine certainly seemed perkier or more responsive after I got it sorted. Did I get more horses or torques? I dont know, the process took a long time and I forgot what I started with. But the longer I ran the car (read: the fresher the fuel) the better it all seemed to go

    In all the installation of the unit was a doddle. Engine starting and running during warm-up are excellent - even before I found the curve I settled on. But it did take me a while to find the right advance curve for my R12 engine. I later fitted it to an 1108cc R10s motor and twiddled with the settings 'til I got it sweet. Engine starting and running during warm-up are excellent. In the end both vehicles ran just fine and idled sweetly.

    The most critical bit of information, and it is clearly stated in the installation instructions, is to ensure that the initial timing is set to 10 degrees.

    I would have to say now I'm happy with the setup and the set-and-forget nature of the unit has let me chase down other tuning issues. For instance, the slight hesitation I get going from overrun to on throttle is not a distributor issue but a build up of crankcase fumes, the longer on overrun, the greater the hesitation. And so on...

    I think the unit would come into its own in places where winters are cold.

    But yeah, a belated thumbs up from me.
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  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Regarding the 123 and the R10, I remember looking at the ones available a few years ago and they were all for diffierent applications of the Sierra motor, things like R4, DAF etc I seem to recall. So I stayed away. There is now a TUNE version that lets you set your own curve on a laptop, and this I have on the Citroen CX, with great satisfaction.

    So glad you've got it sorted for an RER.... All the disappointment a few years ago was not having seen the 10 degrees start point I presume?

    Cheers
    JohnW

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