CMR 13" Steelies....thoughts?
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Thread: CMR 13" Steelies....thoughts?

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
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    Default CMR 13" Steelies....thoughts?

    Hey All,
    I found some CMR 13" steelies on subito.it Subito Impresa+ - Davide Tassi cerchi auto d'epoca - Cerchi cmr renault R8 gordini alpine A110 5,5x13 - Accessori Auto In vendita Ferrara

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    I'm tempted to grab them since I have someone near the seller. The price seems right to me and I imagine steel doesn't have the same issues as alloy of the same period. Thoughts on CMR? I have looked at previous threads and have seen the obstacles involved in 13"... but would be nice to have a set stateside... just in case

    Cheers,
    Ben
    Last edited by forzamacchi; 13th March 2017 at 02:03 PM.

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    I have a set of those myself in 5x13 and 5,5x13. Even with 155 tyres the 5" front ones is barely covered by the fenders. Another thing to considder is that they are quite heavey.

    But in my opinion they are maybe the best looking wheels for the R8 and at Eur400 quite a bargain. In France they would probably be priced to about Eur600
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    They don't look too bad.

    In Oz, a popular mod was to machine out the centre of an existing 14 or 15" wheel and have a specialist wheel shop weld that centre into a brand new 13 or 14 inch rim (diameter not width). People used either the standard r8/10 wheel centre or the R16 centre. The latter was preferable as the centre "cap" was braced (similar to the pic in the link you posted) whereas the std R8/10 wheel this area became a stress area that could crack. People have welded re-enforcing rings internally, but even that can cause stress cracking too.

    I think the R16 centres look better and not unlike these wheels you propose. Sometimes with steel wheels you have to grind the caliper cooling fins down in order to fit 13 rims (particularly on the front wheels); alloys wheels sometimes have enough clearance for this not to be a problem.

    I'd say grab them, particularly with the cost of s/h cosmics or the latter offerings from mecaparts et al.
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    KB


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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I'm with KB. Not a bad price. Then, you need four visits of friends/relatives, 1 wheel in one suitcase per trip....
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    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
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    Very sad case......

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    I am no enthusiast for 13" rims (over-much offset at the front degrading rather sweet steering) but YMMV (hey! can all those 13" A110s be wrong? - yes!). In my view 14" is perfect for Rear-engined Renaults.

    Before choosing wheels investigate available tyres in the sizes you might have to use.

    On ring-reinforced cut-down wheels (my invention I think): the reinforcing rings work well but the locating spot welds have to be in the right place. I can revisit the matter if anyone is interested.

    cheers! Peter
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    JohnW suggest to bring them back one by one in the suitcase. Mine were actually brought from France to Norway by myself and my then wife to be(a test of course) and we each had two(!) in each of our suitcases.
    Just a tip.
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    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
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    Any thoughts on what tires I could use? Kumho makes a 185/70R13

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    Hard for us to say as the range available here is different to that in the States. The Kumho you mention is the Solus TA11. It has a very wet-grip unfriendly 700 wear rating & such a highly siped tread that the tread would be squirmy & unstable. I'd avoid it if your motivation for 13" wheels is handling/roadholding.

    Were you to be willing to import 4 tyres from Europe, then I could make further recommendations (if you advised me of your priorities in tyre performance) but otherwise it all looks a bit bleak.

    cheers! Peter

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    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Hard for us to say as the range available here is different to that in the States. The Kumho you mention is the Solus TA11. It has a very wet-grip unfriendly 700 wear rating & such a highly siped tread that the tread would be squirmy & unstable. I'd avoid it if your motivation for 13" wheels is handling/roadholding.

    Were you to be willing to import 4 tyres from Europe, then I could make further recommendations (if you advised me of your priorities in tyre performance) but otherwise it all looks a bit bleak.

    cheers! Peter
    Cheers for the reply! there were some other options, but mostly trailer tires. I would be open to importing .... looking into see what the cost of shipping the rims to USA would be first...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Hard for us to say as the range available here is different to that in the States. The Kumho you mention is the Solus TA11. It has a very wet-grip unfriendly 700 wear rating & such a highly siped tread that the tread would be squirmy & unstable. I'd avoid it if your motivation for 13" wheels is handling/roadholding.

    Were you to be willing to import 4 tyres from Europe, then I could make further recommendations (if you advised me of your priorities in tyre performance) but otherwise it all looks a bit bleak.

    cheers! Peter
    looks like Toyo makes some tires within that range. I use www.tirerack.com for ordering and have a local shop install.

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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    As with all steel wheels of that vintage, rust is your biggest enemy, even if the rims look straight.
    Rust in the wrong place and you could have problems with the tyre bead sealing against the rim and be forever plagued with slow leaks.
    I'm not saying it the case with these rims but a quick blow-over with a can of spraypaint can hide a multitude of problems.
    The easy fix is to use a tube but then the performance of the tyre is compromised.
    They can be welded (and straightened if there has been some kerbing) but it isn't easy to do properly and not cheap.

    But R8 rims don't come up often and if originality is your aim then go for it.
    Otherwise, as mentioned in other posts, have an appropriate centre welded to a good rim.

    Cheers
    Ren
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    I'll also put that price into perspective for when you get the import cost.
    For a set of 14" rims I paid circa $700AUD for four rims to be machined and welded.

    I supplied the four donor R16 wheels for the centres, they supplied the rims (new 6" Holden rims) and did all the machining and welding on their jig. I then still had to have them painted and put tyres on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    As with all steel wheels of that vintage, rust is your biggest enemy, even if the rims look straight.
    Rust in the wrong place and you could have problems with the tyre bead sealing against the rim and be forever plagued with slow leaks.
    I'm not saying it the case with these rims but a quick blow-over with a can of spraypaint can hide a multitude of problems.
    The easy fix is to use a tube but then the performance of the tyre is compromised.
    They can be welded (and straightened if there has been some kerbing) but it isn't easy to do properly and not cheap.

    But R8 rims don't come up often and if originality is your aim then go for it.
    Otherwise, as mentioned in other posts, have an appropriate centre welded to a good rim.

    Cheers
    Ren
    One can clean up, straighten & seal rims. What one should never do is fit a tube in a tubeless tyre (longish story, available on request).

    cheers! Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    Cheers for the reply! there were some other options, but mostly trailer tires. I would be open to importing .... looking into see what the cost of shipping the rims to USA would be first...

    Sent from my LG-H830 using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Not sure which Toyo you have in mind in which size (I was using TireRack as well; I frequent their site for the tyre tests). Toyos are generally poor tyres in the wet (I can't think of a single type which is an exception).

    I have had a bit of a trawl on a European retailer's site in 13". Much, much, better availability than in the U.S. (or Australia for that matter).

    For rear-engined Renaults, I like a tyre size differential from front to rear. This allows one to counter the natural tendency to (ultimately) oversteer whilst enabling one to run higher pressures in the smaller fronts for crisper initial turn in & to counter these cars' built in initial understeer.

    In my judgement, a 20 mm width difference is ideal & I would have liked 165/70 or 165/65 fronts & 185/60 rears. That's not going to happen in 13".

    There are two dominant criteria which should govern choice (again, in my judgement).

    The first is wet grip, both laterally & under braking. These cars lock their fronts under braking & twitch their rears (or plough their fronts with aggressive tight corner turn-in) in corners. The former is helped by removing the rear brake pressure valve & the latter by various means I won't go into here. But, short of doing all that a lot can be achieved simply by tyre choice. So, choose a good wet tyre. This is not just one that has good grip but one that is talkative & controllable around the limit (easy to "threshold" brake & easy when managing a slide at either end).

    There are quite a few tyres which satisfy this brief in such sizes as 165/65, 165/70,175/70, 175/65, & 185/60 (I don't mention 185/70 because, although they could be rears, there's no suitably complementary front size). Various combinations of these would satisfy my size difference demand (for 10mm at least) with not hugely dissimilar circumference measurements. But it is hard to get both front & rear in the same tyre type.

    'So what?' you might say - enter my second criterion.

    Tyres vary in tread stability (most importantly when new) & in structural tautness. If one gets a mix which has a less tread stable &/or less taut structure at the rear, then all sorts of handling instability problems ensue. Easiest is to have the same type front & rear.

    So, what good wet tyres are available in suitably dissimilar sizes for front & rear of a 13" shod R8?

    In my judgement, the standout choice is Continental's EcoContact3. I'd choose 165/70 fronts & 175/65 rears.

    The tyres are obsolescent (replaced by the more fuel efficient EC5) but excellent. I used them for years on my 4CVG & R8 in 165/65-14 & 185/60-14. They very, very, well satisfy my above articulated criteria & had they remained available in Australia, then I would happily have used them indefinitely.

    Picking up on one of my above points: the tread elements are very stable under lateral forces (block instability when new & tall can be a real pain) & although the tyres' structure is not very taut, it is very responsive to pressure variations; so it is simple to tune handling balance by playing with front/rear pressure differences.

    So, maybe you can manage a combined tyre & wheel shipment somehow.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 17th March 2017 at 01:30 AM.
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    Don't want to hijack the thread BUT, I have 5.5" x 14" Fronts and 6.0" x 14" rears for the R8 when it's finished, I'm looking for suggestions about what sort of tyres should I buy? The car will mainly be used for sprints and hill climbs. All suggestions greatly received.

    Cheers
    Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Not sure which Toyo you have in mind in which size (I was using TireRack as well; I frequent their site for the tyre tests). Toyos are generally poor tyres in the wet (I can't think of a single type which is an exception).

    I have had a bit of a trawl on a European retailer's site in 13". Much, much, better availability than in the U.S. (or Australia for that matter).

    For rear-engined Renaults, I like a tyre size differential from front to rear. This allows one to counter the natural tendency to (ultimately) oversteer whilst enabling one to run higher pressures in the smaller fronts for crisper initial turn in & to counter these cars' built in initial understeer.

    In my judgement, a 20 mm width difference is ideal & I would have liked 165/70 or 165/65 fronts & 185/60 rears. That's not going to happen in 13".

    There are two dominant criteria which should govern choice (again, in my judgement).

    The first is wet grip, both laterally & under braking. These cars lock their fronts under braking & twitch their rears (or plough their fronts with aggressive tight corner turn-in) in corners. The former is helped by removing the rear brake pressure valve & the latter by various means I won't go into here. But, short of doing all that a lot can be achieved simply by tyre choice. So, choose a good wet tyre. This is not just one that has good grip but one that is talkative & controllable around the limit (easy to "threshold" brake & easy when managing a slide at either end).

    There are quite a few tyres which satisfy this brief in such sizes as 165/65, 165/70,175/70, 175/65, & 185/60 (I don't mention 185/70 because, although they could be rears, there's no suitably complementary front size). Various combinations of these would satisfy my size difference demand (for 10mm at least) with not hugely dissimilar circumference measurements. But it is hard to get both front & rear in the same tyre type.

    'So what?' you might say - enter my second criterion.

    Tyres vary in tread stability (most importantly when new) & in structural tautness. If one gets a mix which has a less tread stable &/or less taut structure at the rear, then all into of handling instability problems ensue. Easiest is to have the same type front & rear.

    So, what good wet tyres are available in suitably dissimilar sizes for front & rear of a 13" shod R8?

    In my judgement, the standout choice is Continental's EcoContact3. I'd choose 165/70 fronts & 175/65 rears.

    The tyres are obsolescent (replaced by the more fuel efficient EC5) but excellent. I used them for years on my 4CVG & R8 in 165/65-14 & 185/60-14. They very, very, well satisfy my above articulated criteria & had they remained available in Australia, then I would happily have used them indefinitely.

    Picking up on one of my above points: the tread elements are very stable under lateral forces (block instability when new & tall can be a real pain) & although the tyres' structure is not very taut, it is very responsive to pressure variations; so it is simple to tune handling balance by playing with front/rear pressure differences.

    So, maybe you can manage a combined tyre & wheel shipment somehow.

    cheers! Peter
    Hey Peter! I'm rolling on Conti EcoSmarts right now and have had no issues. The new rims aren't a done deal..... but it looks like even if they don't work for me, I can unload them stateside easily! I have written down your suggestions in my log...cheers for the help!

    Sent from my LG-H830 using aussiefrogs mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    Hey Peter! I'm rolling on Conti EcoSmarts right now and have had no issues. The new rims aren't a done deal..... but it looks like even if they don't work for me, I can unload them stateside easily! I have written down your suggestions in my log...cheers for the help!

    Sent from my LG-H830 using aussiefrogs mobile app
    I assume you mean Conti EcoContact EP in 145/65-15 (fitted as front tyres for the first Smart). These are the predecessor of the EC3. I use them as spares on the R8, 4CVG & Djet because they are as near as dammit the same circumference as the tyres fitted to those toys. If using normal 4"X15" wheels, then I consider them to be the optimal fitment. Sadly, they are no longer available in Australia.

    I had reason to fit two such spares as front tyres on my R8 at one stage (with the normal 165/65-14 fronts (EC3) on the rear). Overall limits were lower than normal but the car was nicely balanced & still very grippy in the wet under braking & lateral loads.

    Even more impressively, I also had occasion to have one fitted to the front on my Djet with the other wheel carrying the normal 165/65-14 PremiumContact2 tyre. The spare was inflated to a higher pressure. As I recall, I only drove it in the dry but it was on my favourite & most thoroughly understood twisty country road & I had a "go" in the interests of science (& knowing that the Djet is so super-controllable that almost any untidiness would be retrievable). I am very tyre sensitive & was somewhat astonished to find that (with that pressure difference) the Djet's behaviour was very, very similar on right & left hand bends.

    The upshot is that I am rather enthusiastic about the EP, despite it being an obsolescent type (no doubt with the compound updated & perhaps the structure).

    cheers! Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Don't want to hijack the thread BUT, I have 5.5" x 14" Fronts and 6.0" x 14" rears for the R8 when it's finished, I'm looking for suggestions about what sort of tyres should I buy? The car will mainly be used for sprints and hill climbs. All suggestions greatly received.

    Cheers
    Phil
    Obviously track-day style tyres. As to which ones, there are some tests but not many & you will be restricted by size & won't have much choice.

    I suggest 175/60 fronts & 185/60 rears. See:

    Direzza ZII Star Spec, Dunlop, Australia

    My own inclination would be those Z11 Direzzas but people like Frans have much experience of these types of tyres & their advice would be superior. (Most use 13" though and availability is different in the two sizes).

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 17th March 2017 at 01:33 AM.

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