K4J / K4M Physical sizes
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Default K4J / K4M Physical sizes

    Just so Iím clear;

    K4J 1390cc 16v
    K4M 1598cc 16v

    These modern iron block, alloy engines, has anyone got their physical dimensions handy? I note they look quite tall with their inlet manifold crossing over the black In effort to increase runner length I suppose, but perhaps under that they arenít too ridiculous.

    Just curious, there isnít one in ebay Iím about to buy for $100.

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    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I have a K4M that I'll be putting in my R10, eventually. I can measure it when I get home if you want. Or you can come and see it, I'm in Rockdale.

    I'm guessing this is for your R12, you'll either need a R5 flywheel or a 847 flywheel and a trigger sensor on the harmonic balancer which I can help you with. If you want to run the stock ECU you'll need to retain the immobiliser stuff. If you go with an after market ECU, which I would recommend it'll need to be dyno'd for emissions. You'll also need to keep all the emissions gear on the engine, charcoal box, breathers, cat etc.

    Make sure it's a K4M-744 or better, stock they are 107HP.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well more of a passing sniff as my imagination passes over me. I'm also 7" tall, rich and and breath under water in my imagination too.

    I reckon the slope the bonnet in a 12 would not be forgiving, but you never know until you ask. Just thinking about 810's / 807's, well they are all old, and well, it would be nice to be able to buy a recent lump of something, and if it was just a matter of making engine mounts, and having some make a gearbox adaptor / custom bell housing... well that "might" be a fun solution. "shrugs".

    Wait what gearbox are you using if you are just changing the flywheel?

    And hang about, these have engine mounts up the top?

    But yes if you have some rough measurements, height, length, width, location of mounts, it may help me get over the idea
    Last edited by bowie; 7th March 2017 at 12:22 PM.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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  4. #4
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The 807 may be old, but it delivers on power just as well as the new one. If the new one is cast iron, you'll also pay a weight penalty. And the 807 in Gordini spec it can give you 100HP per litre, pretty much the limit for N/A engines of any age. I know Frans has squeezed a bit more from his engines, but I am talking about off the shelf bits and pieces without any effort.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 7th March 2017 at 08:10 PM.
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  5. #5
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    I'm using a late R10 bell housing which is the same pattern as an R12 bell housing. The 847 flywheel from a 1.4l R12 will bolt straight to the K4M and the bell housing bolt pattern is the same. The reason you can't use the K4M flywheel is it won't fit in the bell housing, you could get it to fit into a R16 bell housing but you'd need an adaptor plate and then you'd have to sort out the clutch.

    To the the R12 starter to fit you'll need to grind a couple of mm of the block, there will be plenty of meat left. The K4M starter is different but if you were making an adaptor plate to use an R16 bell housing you could use it.

    For installation into an R8/10/A110 you need to modify the sump a little, but not much. May not need to in an R12 as the clutch release is different

    In terms of power with modified/custom intake and exhaust you'll get more then 107HP, the engine is good to 160HP with stock internals and a turbo, you can grind the cams to increase the duration. Do modern twin cam engines produce more torque then old ones, this is where it may win over the 807, torque is what gets you off the line quickly.

    If you are doing an adaptor plate you could consider a F4R from a Clio RS, or an F4RT, that'll get you over 200HP with the correct bits.

    The engine mounts are at the top usually so you'll need to make some for the bottom, there are places to put them.

    I started a thread about this a while ago, haven't had anything to update for a while, been too busy doing other things, metal work and a baby.
    K4M into an R10

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    All very interesting. Thanks for the paragraphs C.less. Being able to leave the 12 gearbox in place (until it broke) would be amazing!

    Schlitzaugen, yes 807 would be the way to go, (I keep taking for granted that they are all alu, just how heavy are these K's? ) but judging by the desperate phone calls I've been having from the one I advertised last week, I'm beginning to prepare myself for just how rare they are..

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  7. #7
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    That an alloy blocks and warp then then need to be line bored. Not sure how common this is with the 807 but if the one you find has been thrashed or cooked I imagine the chances are higher. The other advantage of the 807 is you don't need to meet the ADR emissions rules etc and you can run carbs instead of EFI. You are not allowed to put carbs on an engine that was EFI to start with. EFI means you have more tunabilty.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    No problems with EFI, I'd now just hope it's not very tall and might fit the 12's bonnet under-space.

    Fsking around with exhaust, inlet manifolds, radiator is a given, adding a surge tank for the efi and some pumps is achievable..

    Can't fine a reference for the K engine weight, but found this;
    engine weights

    That lists the "Energy Series" just before the K's at about 108kgs. What's an 807? They feel about 90~kg.

    Anyway, all this is useless without some measurements. More googling for me.
    Last edited by bowie; 7th March 2017 at 04:58 PM.

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  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    It's approx 450mm above the crank centre. About 490 with the black plastic manifold but you don't want to use that as it puts the intake over the exhaust. It's about 470mm long.

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  10. #10
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    If it is too high put a bulge in the bonnet. The guy in France managed to get it an A110 so it should fit in an R12. It actually sounds like quite a few people have put them in older Renaults in France, they are allowed to run carbs.

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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    K4J / K4M Physical sizes-wp_20170307_19_03_09_pro.jpgK4J / K4M Physical sizes-wp_20170307_19_02_51_pro.jpgK4J / K4M Physical sizes-wp_20170307_18_57_12_pro.jpgK4J / K4M Physical sizes-wp_20170307_18_56_52_pro.jpg

    Hmmm, length maybe. One would probably end up with some JDM radiator hanging out the front (or at least fans out the font) / you would probably have to cut into the front cross bar. Assuming a radiator will be thicker that this thing, and height. Measuring from hand crank starter grommet at the front (yes it still has one) I put the bonnet 400-410mm at it's lowest point. Moving right to the backwards you gain another 200-210mm as the bonnet slopes up, So where the engine would start, you probably have a real crank to bonnet height of 420/430mm.

    The height of the Solex is approx 100-120mm above the lowest point at the front too fyi.

    And there is probably another 50-80mm to be gained by grinding some of that center bonnet support away.

    Man with some real measurements it might be pretty close.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
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  12. #12
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    The high point of the motor is actually at the front where the original engine mount goes, you could save 20mm by cutting the front flange down and making a custom timing cover which you would have to do anyway.

    There is no fan on the motor so you'd end up with an electric one anyway, if there is space in front of the radiator then that is where you'd put it. I can't imagine it is any longer then an 807 as the bell housing for the 807 is deeper then the one for the 847, at least for the R10 version.

    It'll fit, its only the bonnet, just put a reverse scoop on it. If the engine is cheap it's not a big initial investment. Does it come with the alternator etc? The original position of it isn't the greatest so you may need to make custom brackets, I'll be moving it to the other side.

    If you go down this path I can get extra intake and exhaust flanges made when I get around to it if you are going to make your own manifolds. I'll also be getting a trigger wheel laser cut that mounts on the front of the harmonic balancer.

    Christian

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    This is something to consider when I'm settled up there. I'm quite excited there is a modern engine option that will bolt up to the 40yr old gearbox.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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