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    Default Dog gearbox

    Guys,

    did anyone try to build a dog gearbox for the R8 /A 110 and derivates or was thinking about?
    I would like to have a much longer 1. and 2. gear to get better connection to the 3. one. Furthermore, the 5. gear is much too short anyway especially for a powerful car. You might go crazy with driving 100 km/h (about 60 mph) with making 4500 rpm, this maybe adequat for a 100 BHP car which is only used in Motorsports, without moving on traffic roads.

    I thought about making an own gearbox, but itīs really a very big expense turning all gears / shafts, dogs and sliders and toothing is very expensive in summary.

    The problem with the stock boxes ( no matter if 330/353/364 a.s.o) is that the sychromesh ring of the first gear wheel has a big diameter.If you want to go to a longer 1. gear, the wheel on the main shaft has to become smaller a Diameter, so the synchro ring has too less space inside the Wheel. Thats the reason why These kind of boxes are never comparable with real racing boxes as for instance BMW, Ford or Opel are using.

    In consequence, you have to go to a dog box without synchro rings and one is completly free to design the box. It would be interesting if anyone shares my thoughts. Funny that I donīt find someone in Germany or even in France who is interested in creating such a box. So I thought to try it on the other side of the globe....

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    Sometimes, there might be solutions by random, f.i. with a existing dogbox which shares the shaft distances (70 mm) of another box and it might be possible to use complicated parts as dogs or sliders or gearwheels from an other gearbox.

    Cheers

    Udo

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    Hi Alpinelover,
    Interesting thoughts. Good luck to you in your quest. The earlier models from the 50s gearboxes had similar "crash" dog engaged boxes available aftermarket. But these would be valuable now if you found any parts. I recall seeing a string of gears for sale here tied together with wire years ago. I wonder where they ended up ??
    A place to look for suitable gears might be in motorbike gear boxes. They have dogs and can handle a lot of power too. Not sure where to look though sorry !
    Jaahn

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    Hi Alpinelover

    Keos Racing looks like he does gearboxes

    Blog de keos-racing - Les belles caisses de Jean-Marc - Skyrock.com
    Regards Col

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    Is 70mm used by Hewlandfor any of their boxes? I think 70mm is one of the older Datsun or Nissan shaft separation figures.

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    Are you going to stick with the original case and the swing axles? If you are going all the way, change the rear suspension as well, this opens up more gearbox possibilities including a Subaru box with a flipped crown wheel.

    I'm sure there would be a few people interested in alternate rear setups if it can be done.

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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Udo, What motor and power do you want to use ????

    Because if you want to race a "dog-box" and independent rear suspension, contact Hewland and XTrac

    Hewland | Transmissions
    Xtrac - Transmission Technology

    You will wind up with the best value and durability. They have boxes for every type of use, and can make special casings for adaption. There are a number of cheaper manufactures, but you get what you pay for.

    A very powerful base box is a Renault UN1. Swap-able crownwheel side and a number of manufacturers make performance internals for them. Just remember the "330" and "353" is good for about 110hp (racing). "330"+"385"+"365" about 170-180hp (racing). Both with lots of maintenance. UN1 standard will do 250hp (racing) with lots of maintenance.

    If you want to run strait cut gears on the road, then you are a fool as they are very noisy. And in Australia they would get you hauled over by the police all the time.

    Ray
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    My engine is in Progress , RAAlpine Basic, but bored /strokes to 1768 ccm. Big valves, Special rods/crank/Pistons/porting/exhaust/needle bearing cam and driven by gears, friction optimised. 4 Barrel Injektion, estimated output 200 bhp. I want to Keep the swing axle and the original gearhousing to stay original with the basic car layout, otherwise the value of the car is lost.

    All mentioned gear Solutions ( Hewland / X-Track / Keops) are known, but expensive and unless Keops not suitable for the Alpine. All have straight cut gears, very noisy, not for public roads (and my nerves). The only solution would be a Special mede Pfitzner gearbox from your Country with helical gear cut and anyway dog Engagement, but I`m worried about having to pay 20 or 30k€ for such a development box.......

    Cheers
    Udo

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    Basic engine is R 5 Alpine ( cleon engine 840-726), stock cap. 1397 ccm

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    Udo,
    Now that you know what you are running and the aprox HP, I think you Alpine needs to be an SC/SI type back suspension or R5T2/Maxi, and you run a UN1 box with good internals. Plenty made for T2/Maxi. If you want swing tube suspension, you need very fancy internals, as I said 330+385+365 is what builds a fairly strong box, but it need constant servicing and maintenance. That is why they homologated the a-arm suspensions for later boxes.

    Ray
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    Ray,
    I thought even 10 years ago about using the UN1 box when Iintended to use a 4 valve engine. The problem with the A110 ist that if you aregoing t obig engines and boxes, the overall proportion of the car will be lostand the light-footed handling as well. The UN1 box is much heavier than the330/353 gearbox. Furter the UN box is not suitable to fit with the swing axle.
    A very common conversation in France / Germany is to use theinternals of the NG5 gearbox (from Renault 5 Alpine Turbo, FWD – not to confusewith R5 Turbo mid-engined) and put them with some matching into the stock 330gearbox with a 5.speed cover, so you make it suitable to keep the swing axle.Themost NG5-internals are much stronger than even the „Monte Carlo“-gearset oft he364 box and is able to manage almost 200 hp – at least without hard racing andslicks maybe.Some internals – diff andinput shaft – can be used from the NG1 / NG3 and are much stronger as NG5.
    The UN1 Box should be able to deal with almost 350 HP,depending of the torque of course.
    The problem with the NG5 gearset ist hat the ratios are ratherbullshit for a high output NA engine,because1. speed is much to short, aswell 2. and 3. speed too. So you have bad matching tot he next gears. I triedto make a new gearset together with a friend of mine who is familiar withCAD/CAM design for the NG5. But you have to design 1-2 gear completly differentwith new gearwheels, sliders, hubs and sychromesh rings because with a longerratio, the smaller 1. gearwheel dia. will no more accept the sychro diameter. So it would be abig and expensiv deal to develop such a box. The other way to use a dog boxwould be more consequent, but I would only accept one if itīs suitable forstreet use because my car is not only for competiton. Sometimes hill climb andslalom, trackdays, but mainly public roads. Surely no daily driver, but I hategear whining. This can be eliminated by using a helical toothing what ispossible together with dog engagementlike Pfitzner does.
    When struggling with the gearbox ,I lost more hairs than with theengine. And I don`t f****** find someone who wouldshares my requirements to keep costs down,neither in Germany, Europe or even worldwide…..
    About the newerwishbone-rear axle oft he later types, 1600 SC : If I would cancel the swingaxle, I would design my own suspension. The original rear axle is made for atruck and very similar (or even identical) to the 6 cyl. A 310. Halfshafts,trailing arms, wheel bearings, everything not really a race car design. The swing axle is apart from itīs poorgeometry at least light weight. I admit that the swing axle is not really anadvanced design, but if you have understood their behaviour, you can deal withit.

    Udo
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    If I was in your position I would build a new subframe for the rear and use non-swingarm suspension and incorporate the UN1.

    The benefits would outweigh the problems.

    You would have better suspension and a stronger box.

    The weight gain goes with the territory.

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    Interesting thread folks. Thanks.
    JohnW

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    Very sad case......

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    I would never change the gearbox completly. The internal size of the box is adequat to deal with 200 hp, I need no UN1. If I would do so, no problem is solved at all because I would need all dog internals for this box as well. Apart from that, the original Frame of the A 110 does not accept a longer gearbox, even a 5 Speed box 353 does fit just very close. With a UN, ti has to be shifted yet more to the rear, together with the engine, what makes the weight distribution a mess. In Germany, theres a well-known A 110 with a BMW M3 engine running, with a UN-gearbox. This monster has 330 hp, but it doesnīt persuade to turn in and if it worked, it oversteers like crazy. No more harmonic behaviour as liked from the A 110. I was 15 years involved in DTM and i know what happens if a car loses itīs balance. Apart from that: To Switch to the UN and a subframe, I would have to knock down the whole car and spend 2 years more to get it finished. No way.......

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    Try to get in touch with Gerry Freed on this forum, he suggested some time ago he had contacts in India where gears could be machined to quality and reasonable price. I was looking back then for a final drive and crown wheel for a 365 'box, which I found s/h in the mean time. These are more difficult to machine because they are hypoid. i imagine your few gears and such would not be anywhere near as hard.

    You could also try Albins here in Australia (Victoria) where they can cut you any gear you want (including hypoid) but I am not sure how much it would run you. For my final drive/cw they asked 11000$. Looks like they make good quality stuff.

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    @schlitzaugen: Am i right, you did state 11000 $ (Australian ones) just for the final drive with crown wheel? For heavens sake, Iīm not Rockefeller or Bill Gates.....I admit that the manufacturing of crown wheels and pinions is very complicated. Thats the reason why Iīm going to make all my plannings with a NG5 gearset, what means to keep the main shaft (with pinion) and crown wheel stock. All other items might be replaced by special ones ( gearwheels, sliders, dog rings a.s.o.) and as well the input shaft ( gear Train drive shaft).

    But your proposal with india parts might be very helpful, I could even communicate on English with this guys. Maybe Gerry Freed would try to contact me. The problem with those deals is how to control quality and how to tune detail problems with the manufacturer. You should have a confidental guy down there who manages the deal.....Anyway, as I think to know, the labor costs are a fracture of ours and the setup costs are very time consuming.

    Thanks for your help

    Udo

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    Thanks for the contact with Gerry Freed, I hope he tries to contact me.
    Am I right with 11000 $ (Australian ones?) for the Crown wheel and pinion? Sorry, Iīm not Bill Gates at all, it seems definitely too expensive though I have to admit that the producing of CW +P is very complicated…..anyway not affordable. Even in Germany, it would be estimated 3000 €, appr. 4200 AUD.
    Just to need no new main shaft with pinion and CW, on all my plans I would keep the NG5 main shaft and CW, they are adequate to deal 200 hp and can made to fit the 330 housing with swing axle. All other internals has to be replaced by special ones ( gearwheels, sliders, dog rings, input drive shaft).
    With India, it maybe a problem to control the quality of materials, hardening processes a.s.o., it would be best to find a confidential guy who knows the shop which makes the parts. Again, I would ask Gerry Freed to contact me if he can help this way. Probably thereīs a motorsport shop which is experienced in doing that.
    Thanks,
    Udo

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    Sorry for posting twice, there was something confusing when I started to post. No matter, twice better than None.....

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    Yeap, 11k AUD.

    They said that manufacturing more than one set would add nothing to the price, so the suggestion was that I get as many people on board as possible, but there was no enthusiasm for it, so I gave up.

    Yeah, I know, for some reason Germany is not as expensive as Australia at engineering, perhaps because you do a lot more of it. Recently, an artist had to have his sculpture moulds flown to Germany to cast in bronze and then flown back to Australia and it was still 10kAUD cheaper than doing it here (large, life-size sculpture).

    That said, they told me the price was high because of the hypoid gears. They said other kind of gears are not that much, so I still think it is worth a shot.

    On the other hand, I am sure you can find people in England who can cut gears like that. Try getting in touch with Steve Swan in Scotland, he does mess around with gearboxes a lot (see his website).

    http://www.8gordiniworkshop.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

    Gerry Freed insisted that quality was not an issue, but he said that in the context of his contacts in India. That is why I suggested you contact him directly via PM here.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 8th March 2017 at 06:53 PM.
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    I own a gearbox workshop - shameless plug - neatgearboxes. Do a search on google.
    We regularly have custom gears and full sets made in Australia.
    Feel free to contact me if you're interested.
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    I am no longer able to visit India and my good friend there is also incapacitated and currently in hospital. When he has recovered I can get the name of his gear cutter but I think that it not practical without detailed drawings and specifications of each component and some way of controlling the project on the spot.

    Neat Gearboxes look like they know what they are doing and I will be sending parts of a Panhard gear box to them for treatment.

    You might perhaps look at these people
    Welcome to Sri Venkateshwara Gear Wheels
    but I am not sure whether they will do just one set of gears.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 8th March 2017 at 07:33 PM.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chez00 View Post
    I own a gearbox workshop - shameless plug - neatgearboxes. Do a search on google.
    We regularly have custom gears and full sets made in Australia.
    Feel free to contact me if you're interested.

    Do you cut the gears or do you send them out to be cut?

    When I was in the market looking around for a shop able to cut hypoid gears I found only Albins were capable to do it and most people told me they send their orders to the UK.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Guys,
    lots of information here …..nice to discuss.
    I know Steve Swan, but as I īm informed, he isnīt any more busy with his R8 and no more involved in building boxes a.s.o. About the hypoid gearing: I donīt need this producing, I keep my standard main shaft which includes the pinion (and crown wheel). Just because these are that expensive, I refused to make them new. My final drive ratio is perfect together with the gear ratios I would choose.
    Thanks Gerry Freed for your honest statement about the Indian deal. I agree completely that controlling has to be done down there. Unfortunately, as yet I didnīt have drawings or a CAD model available for a race box.
    @chez00: Thanks for your offer with your shop, I know the advantages of shotpeening and your website looks very professional. I guess you donīt rather make any new parts as gears a.s.o. ?
    Other question: Do you know the NG5 gearbox in down under? Itīs from the Renault 5 Alpine Turbo, similar to the 385. But donīt confuse with other NG-boxes as NG1, NG3, NG7 or NG9. The crwon wheel of them is switched to the other side due to the reversed driving direction. And you can definitely not reverse the diff as you can on the UN1 or other boxes. The centerline of the NGs is shifted some mms, so reversing will cause dramatically gear damages if it will be done anyway. The NG5 is the only box which accepts the engine behind the box, no matter if fitted in front or rear. The engine/gearbox arrangement from the R5 is sort of shifted from the front to the rear axle at the A 110 or R8.

    Udo

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    Surely you'd be able to get the gears cut in China, there are a lot on CNC shops and they are usually pretty cheap.

    I've used Gensun for private jobs as well as parts for work (underwater pressure vessels)
    http://www.china-machining.com/

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    Udo,
    The NG5 casings are different to the 330, and I have been told a lot of extra work to make the NG5 fit into the 330 casings. You need both stripped boxes on the bench to see the differences. As I said, that is why the factory (Alpine) went to open rear suspension at the rear to be able to run a modified 365 (CW&P) in the rally cars. Many boxes came out of that. But no spares are still available. People at SADEV may still know what was made and have drawings of it.

    Ray
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    Schlitz - we outsource custom gear cutting, but work with the cutters on design profiles, dimensional constraints, ratios and so on. We use a variety of gear makers, mostly in Australia and one in Europe. The contact in Europe makes many gears for Sadev, as well as Ferrari, RalliArt and Bugatti to name a few. We use them for larger batches of hypoid gears like Porsche, Mitsubishi.

    Albins are not the only ones capable of hypoid cuts in Aus either, there are at least a couple more in Aus. Albins generally like to work in batches which is understandable, but one supplier does one-offs for me, approx $3000 for a set. Multiples improve the unit price.

    Udo, if you can provide the OEM gears and shafts etc (even if damaged), we can engineer a solution for you with new components. Without a sample I'd be unwilling to take the job on. It's preferable to have the complete housing etc so we can check clearances in real-world situation. A price indication for designing and manufacturing a 5-speed straight cut dog box including input shaft, 5 dog-shift idler gears, matched splined gears, 3 sets of dog hubs and rings, and 3 billet selector forks is AU$8,500 +GST (tax not applicable if exporting). This could change if there are any unusual constraints that I'm not aware of. Lead time is around 3 months usually. Please note that doesn't include the hypoid final drive.

    I admit I am not familiar with the NG5 specifically, but work with many transaxles such as Porsche, Ferrari, Getrag, Subaru and VAG/Lamborghini, so have a fair idea of what we'd need to do.

    Sorry for the shameless plug but we love working on these types of projects. I hope this is of broader help to those reading.
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