16TX Cylinder head rebuild.
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Thread: 16TX Cylinder head rebuild.

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    Icon10 16TX Cylinder head rebuild.

    Continuing on the rebuild of my 16TX motor.
    16TX Cylinder head rebuild.-img_0360.jpg16TX Cylinder head rebuild.-img_0357.jpg16TX Cylinder head rebuild.-img_0359.jpg16TX Cylinder head rebuild.-img_0361.jpg16TX Cylinder head rebuild.-img_0358.jpg16TX Cylinder head rebuild.-img_0362.jpg

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I somehow don't think mine will ever look that clean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    I somehow don't think mine will ever look that clean.
    My Aim is to make it as good as new but better...

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Steam blasting, right?

    Nice. Did you check if it is still standard or it was shaved?

    Now to the block.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 26th November 2016 at 03:38 AM.
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    its cold water vapour blasting.I find it to be the best way to start on any motor build. Its like working with new parts.

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    Im not sure what the thickness of the head should be. Does anyone know what standard is?

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Should be in the books, from foggy memory 75mm?

    You can't do anything about it if it was (unless you want to machine it further), just make sure it's square.

    I found one of mine was machined on a slant, higher at one end, not sure how they managed to achieve that.
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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenoniJap View Post
    Im not sure what the thickness of the head should be. Does anyone know what standard is?
    Don't worry about that now. Decide on the Compression Ratio, cc it and then decide what the thickness should be. (or should have been)

    Frans
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    Icon7 Questions questions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Don't worry about that now. Decide on the Compression Ratio, cc it and then decide what the thickness should be. (or should have been)

    Frans
    Frans,

    in the race motors you built, what compression ratio did you decide on? Bearing in mind this is a 1647 motor I was thinking in the region of 10/1. Do you think this too high? One more question, Are there any other make of car gearbox that I can use their splined output shafts as I don't want to modify the ones I currently have on the car. Im trying to keep the existing gearbox and motor as one piece.

    Regards,

    Peter

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenoniJap View Post
    Im not sure what the thickness of the head should be. Does anyone know what standard is?
    93.5mm is the original standard thickness. 10 to 1 with a bit of a cam upgrade will be fine with sidedrafts on whatever high octane fuel is available in the UK. You should be able to achieve this with a head skim and your current pistons. Without going very silly you should see 110Hp+ at the wheels with this 807 motor in the R8. Doesn't sound like a big number, but in an R8 it will prove to be a lot of fun.

    There are larger domed pistons available which will give you the compression you want, or maybe 10.25 without planing the head, but you will need to take a small amount from the squish zone of the combustion chamber to accommodate them. The chamber design is generally not prone to detonation.

    How much power do you need in a small lightweight car? My fairly warm 16TS ran a flat 13 sec quarter with a softish start when mounted in a 650Kg 4CV. It gets kinda scary over 100 MPH. My R8 with the same motor would top out at 125MPH at 8000 rpm, but it also was not very stable at that speed.
    Last edited by alan moore; 26th November 2016 at 07:01 PM.
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    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
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    Thank you Alan,

    The power that you have out of the 16TS is close to what I am looking for. I was thinking 130 Hp would be good.I here you as far as the road holding is concerned. I had a VW beetle in SA with a 13B rotary engine in it and at 100mph it was unpredictable and all over the road. I want to keep the head squish area as is for now but maybe later increase the comp ratio. I like to do things step by step.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    110 hp at the wheels is around 140 at the flywheel.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    110 hp at the wheels is around 140 at the flywheel.
    25% loss in transmission is a fair bit.

    I would say about 120+ some change at the flywheel.
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    Default Holly Moley!!

    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    25% loss in transmission is a fair bit.

    I would say about 120+ some change at the flywheel.

    Very interesting find today. It looks like my Lancia Delta Integrale exhaust manifold is almost exactly the same in dimensions give or take 2-3mm. Quite interesting. Picked up the 16 gearbox today and the R8 gearbox halves.
    Started cleaning the engine block making it ready to do my special Aqua blast procedure. I have made this water jet blaster that uses glass beads and it seems to be doing the trick. The head was the first experiment. Now cleaned the head with distilled water and mild detergent. One thing I can say is a second hand dishwasher really does the job. Just don't use dishwasher soap otherwise the aluminium parts go a crappy grey colour.16TX Cylinder head rebuild.-img_0380.jpgClick image for larger version. 

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Sorry for the late answer, I was racing yesterday so the weekend was a bit busy. I agree with Alan on the 10.25:1 but I would go for 10.5:1 provided you have 98 octane available.

    Looking at your gearbox pictures, I noticed the spacer that goes on the R8 box when you fit the 16TS internals. Has the R8 box already been converted or where else would you find a spacer like that?

    The output shafts are the weak points, so I think that would answer your question. You have to change them.

    Regards, Frans
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    I am interested in the details of the water blaster you "made". Please tell us more.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenoniJap View Post
    Very interesting find today. It looks like my Lancia Delta Integrale exhaust manifold is almost exactly the same in dimensions give or take 2-3mm. Quite interesting. Picked up the 16 gearbox today and the R8 gearbox halves.
    Started cleaning the engine block making it ready to do my special Aqua blast procedure. I have made this water jet blaster that uses glass beads and it seems to be doing the trick. The head was the first experiment. Now cleaned the head with distilled water and mild detergent. One thing I can say is a second hand dishwasher really does the job. Just don't use dishwasher soap otherwise the aluminium parts go a crappy grey colour.
    That is why I asked you about steam blasting earlier. That doesn't use beads, only high pressure hot (dry) steam.

    You shouldn't use beads on the camshaft bearing journals.

    Wet bead blasting is used on heads routinely or other stuff with non-critical surfaces. Most places won't do it on blocks because of the risk of contamination in the oil passages where it is difficult to access to make sure every last bead is out.
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    Icon10 Gearbox internal spacer

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi,

    Sorry for the late answer, I was racing yesterday so the weekend was a bit busy. I agree with Alan on the 10.25:1 but I would go for 10.5:1 provided you have 98 octane available.

    Looking at your gearbox pictures, I noticed the spacer that goes on the R8 box when you fit the 16TS internals. Has the R8 box already been converted or where else would you find a spacer like that?

    The output shafts are the weak points, so I think that would answer your question. You have to change them.

    Regards, Frans
    Hello Frans,

    The gearbox i got from a guy who races a Gordini in sprints here in the UK. His name is Nigel. He is really clued up on all things Gordini and has helped me with this stuff he is not going to use. I have one question. Do you machine the drive splines coming out of the gearbox or do you machine the splines in the Universal coupling?
    The spacer is a 12mm spacer so I will be getting the modified hangers ,engine mounts etc from Nigel . I have looked at Mecaparts and they are quite expensive and they don't have that coupling. Do you have a source in Australia? or SA. Im trying to keep my current gearbox and motor separate and not modify at all. i want to be able to roll out the old motor with all gearbox drive shafts and gearbox and wheel in the new gearbox etc...
    or is that a bad idea?

    Regards,

    Peter

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    As far as the vapour blaster is concerned, I will post some photos of my little contraption when I have a chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That is why I asked you about steam blasting earlier. That doesn't use beads, only high pressure hot (dry) steam.

    You shouldn't use beads on the camshaft bearing journals.

    Wet bead blasting is used on heads routinely or other stuff with non-critical surfaces. Most places won't do it on blocks because of the risk of contamination in the oil passages where it is difficult to access to make sure every last bead is out.
    I hear what you are saying Schlitaugen,
    I cover all areas with Duck tape that don't get blasted. I do the blasting so i make sure I don't go near any of the critical surfaces. For the block it is quite easy to mask off the areas that don't get blasted. I will try to take some photos of the pre process and after process. CLEANING after is extremely important. I used to do this with my Rotax 250 Kart engine for many years and it won the SA championship 6 times (not in my hands though). F1 use the same process to treat carbon parts before bonding and to clean certain engine components .

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenoniJap View Post
    Do you machine the drive splines coming out of the gearbox or do you machine the splines in the Universal coupling?
    The splines are machined out on the universal, and I believe the universals are changed to an early BMW, maybe E21 or 2002. The end of the axle is drilled out and the bump rubber is fitted to this, rather than in a hole in the original universal joint. After machining out the spline, you will need to weld or hold by some other means, a small cover over the bottom of the spline to stop the oil migrating down the splines and out to your wheel bearing.

    Any capable machine shop should be able to make up the 12mm spacer from some plate. It might make life easier if you gave them the plate roughly cut round with a hole in the middle with a plasma cutter for them to machine it to size. A negative of this spacer is it will push out that wheel another 12mm, which can make guard clearance a problem with wider wheels, maybe not so much on an R8, but on my 4CV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    The splines are machined out on the universal, and I believe the universals are changed to an early BMW, maybe E21 or 2002. The end of the axle is drilled out and the bump rubber is fitted to this, rather than in a hole in the original universal joint. After machining out the spline, you will need to weld or hold by some other means, a small cover over the bottom of the spline to stop the oil migrating down the splines and out to your wheel bearing.

    Any capable machine shop should be able to make up the 12mm spacer from some plate. It might make life easier if you gave them the plate roughly cut round with a hole in the middle with a plasma cutter for them to machine it to size. A negative of this spacer is it will push out that wheel another 12mm, which can make guard clearance a problem with wider wheels, maybe not so much on an R8, but on my 4CV.
    Thank you Alan,

    Does anyone know or have a photo of the BMW universal? I have been looking on eBay but can't seem to find any. Maybe I'm putting in the wrong description.

    Regards,

    Peter

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BenoniJap View Post
    Thank you Alan,

    Does anyone know or have a photo of the BMW universal? I have been looking on eBay but can't seem to find any. Maybe I'm putting in the wrong description.

    Regards,

    Peter

    Try this (I guess it's the early 2002 half shafts you are interested in):

    Early Half Shaft R&R - FAQ Articles Construction Zone - BMW 2002 FAQ
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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Peter,

    It is a u-joint from the propshaft. A normal cross type with the cups and needle rolloers. Same dimensions as R8 but solid in the centre and not hollow as R8.

    Frans
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    I dont don't think the E21 had the 2002 style Uni joint, but rather, had 2 CV type joints. Relying on a 20 year old picture in my head of my 320i rear underneath...


    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    The splines are machined out on the universal, and I believe the universals are changed to an early BMW, maybe E21 or 2002. The end of the axle is drilled out and the bump rubber is fitted to this, rather than in a hole in the original universal joint. After machining out the spline, you will need to weld or hold by some other means, a small cover over the bottom of the spline to stop the oil migrating down the splines and out to your wheel bearing.

    Any capable machine shop should be able to make up the 12mm spacer from some plate. It might make life easier if you gave them the plate roughly cut round with a hole in the middle with a plasma cutter for them to machine it to size. A negative of this spacer is it will push out that wheel another 12mm, which can make guard clearance a problem with wider wheels, maybe not so much on an R8, but on my 4CV.


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