Motor show and R8 Cibie headlights.
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Thread: Motor show and R8 Cibie headlights.

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Motor show and R8 Cibie headlights.

    Hi All,

    I went to a motor show yesterday and enjoyed the journey more than the show. In my personal point of view, I have had enough of Yankee Tanks. Here in NZ they are just taking over all shows. Mustangs have become the most boring car in my life , just like a white Corolla.

    In any case, I've done a 400km trip to the show and back and again I can't stop thinking of the lights. I've had both of the last Hyundai I30s and now I've got the Holden Cruze as company cars, and neither of them have the lights of the G. It is just a pleasure to drive with that amount of lighting, and the car obviously.

    Some years ago the question came up as to why have these Cibie lights concave lenses. I was told by someone it is to keep them clean longer. They have a high pressure cushion in front of them and all the small bugs get deviated. Here are 2 pictures of the front of my car with just that proof. I think it will depend very much on the size and weight of the bug. For instance if you go through a swarm of bees, it will not help, but this is a clear indication of the theory.





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    Any other reasons of the lens shape?

    Regards

    Frans.
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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Hi Frans,
    I agree completely with you, and the round 8" is a fantastic light, even without the certre spots.

    Since I have been driving the R10, I have had a few evening drives, and the other night I took my son out to diner in it. He was totally impressed with the lights on dip and bright, and they don't even have relays on them yet. The difference between the R10 and R19 is chalk and cheese. Modern cars just do not have the lights of the '60s and '70s Renaults with Cibies in them.

    Enjoy them at night,
    Ray
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    It's the same for R10 (round & square lights), R12, 15, AND 16'S. also the same as Cibie Oscars and Super-Oscars.

    But I wonder what happened to cause manufacturers to abandon the theory.

    Henry
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubyalpine View Post
    It's the same for R10 (round & square lights), R12, 15, AND 16'S. also the same as Cibie Oscars and Super-Oscars.

    But I wonder what happened to cause manufacturers to abandon the theory.

    Henry
    I reckon it could be something like the shape of the front of the modern car is more aerodynamic. I noticed on the front of my Laguna 2 that the bugs were thick on the bumper but there was hardly any on the head lights.
    Regards Col

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    Actually, old Corollas are getting thin on the ground. And you just try to find a good one of 70s-'60s vintage. You will find 5k$ buys you a potato bag full of rusty screws. Some years ago, an old bloke gave away his one owner station wagon RWD in Mandurrah in the paper when he lost his licence (a '69 model, if I remember correctly, in very good nick by the ad). Gone in 20 minutes after the petrol stations opened the day the paper came out. Haven't seen or heard of another for sale since.
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    My understanding was always exactly that - the concave shape gives an air-pressure dam. Judging by the photo you posted, it works!
    JohnW

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    I'm sure this will get boring because I posted twice already and now for the 3rd time!

    You won't find a better comparison than in this picture. After many many miles on the NZ Classic Tour with Ross's R8 I took this photo. And the question is again "why does the CIBIES come out with with concave lenses?" Compare this Cibie to the Bosch.



    Regards, Frans.
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Apparently studies show yellow lighting is less attractive to bugs than plain incandescent globes, so I think Frans' deduction is 100% correct.

    However, as the fog lights are mounted in front of the headlights maybe the bugs just saw them first?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    Many years ago, I was told that the concave lenses collected fewer bugs than the convex, because of the different airflow. I suspect there is a tiny high pressure zone dammed up just in front of the glass. Makes sense to me.

    I don't think the foglamp colour story works though. If you are driving, the insects can't move fast enough relative to the car to pick which lamp is about to clean them up I reckon, although we do have a yellow "anti-insect" light on the side of the house, so I think the colour story is correct in terms of non-attraction.
    JohnW

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    And what about the heat of the light face, surely it would be warm enough to melt those small insects down to little chunks for the air to blow them off?

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    Nah, the heat just makes them stickier. The trick is to have them deflected.

    Nice and funny thought though.
    JohnW

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    I don't think the bugs problem was a design priority but a lucky perk. I think the concave design is aimed at better focusing the light beam hence the road illumination Frans enjoys. It has most likely been abandoned due to manufacture cost and development of improved convex lights.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Many years ago, I was told that the concave lenses collected fewer bugs than the convex, because of the different airflow. I suspect there is a tiny high pressure zone dammed up just in front of the glass. Makes sense to me.

    I don't think the foglamp colour story works though. If you are driving, the insects can't move fast enough relative to the car to pick which lamp is about to clean them up I reckon, although we do have a yellow "anti-insect" light on the side of the house, so I think the colour story is correct in terms of non-attraction.
    Reminds me of the old joke about rabbits crossing the M1 motorway in England... Two rabbits are discussing the best way to cross, one says 'you just start out across and if a car comes centre yourself between the headlights. I'll show you!" and off he goes...

    First couple of cars come and go and sure enough he dodges them by using his method and off he goes into the next lane. Then he gets to the slow lane, a car comes along and he carefully centres himself between the lights..... and splat!!

    His mate goes "he forgot about the Reliant Robins!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I don't think the bugs problem was a design priority but a lucky perk. I think the concave design is aimed at better focusing the light beam hence the road illumination Frans enjoys. It has most likely been abandoned due to manufacture cost and development of improved convex lights.
    Could well be. I'd certainly not be surprised if that were quite correct. The shape does work though!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I don't think the bugs problem was a design priority but a lucky perk. I think the concave design is aimed at better focusing the light beam hence the road illumination Frans enjoys. It has most likely been abandoned due to manufacture cost and development of improved convex lights.
    When you think about it the difference between a concave and convex lens is bugger all. The dished surface including lens elements simply faces towards or away from the light source and reflector. There might be better light scatter control having the lens closer to the reflector but that's just a hunch. I always felt Cibies with globes outperformed any other brand of headlight with (tungsten) globes.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I always felt Cibies with globes outperformed any other brand of headlight with (tungsten) globes.
    Kim, I agree 100% with you. I do have a company car that is replaced every 3 years and my car includes private use. Needless to say that when we go somewhere it will always be with the company car. Holden Cruze now, 2 x Hyundai before and 2 x Mitsi Lancer before that etc. So if I go on a special trip with the Gordini and turn the lights on it is WOW! Being used to modern day lights I realise the difference is huge.

    Frans

    Edit: Feel sorry for stuffing up the photosynthesis of the plants at night.
    Last edited by Frans; 23rd May 2018 at 07:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I don't think the bugs problem was a design priority but a lucky perk. I think the concave design is aimed at better focusing the light beam hence the road illumination Frans enjoys. It has most likely been abandoned due to manufacture cost and development of improved convex lights.
    Well the design of new cars does not lend itself to concave lights.
    Modern cars all have sloping fronts and the headlights are molded to suit the curvature of the front/guards.
    The relatively flat fronts of the cars from the 50's, 60's, 70's where the lights could be flat allowed the concave glass if the manufacturer so wished.
    The R12's and R16's also had curved glass on the rectangular lights, possibly for the same reason as the concave R8's.

    Cheers
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  18. #18
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    Absolutely.

    We also moved on to better plastics, injection techniques, reflectors, globes/LED, etc, and better aerodynamics so there was no reason to persist with concave or other similar designs. As far as I can figure it out, the concave surface works pretty much like a piston pushing against air, which might stop bugs splattering on the glass but no doubt creates some serious drag.
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Absolutely.

    We also moved on to better plastics, injection techniques, reflectors, globes/LED, etc, and better aerodynamics so there was no reason to persist with concave or other similar designs. As far as I can figure it out, the concave surface works pretty much like a piston pushing against air, which might stop bugs splattering on the glass but no doubt creates some serious drag.
    So who's up for the challenge? Top speed with concave Cibies compared with top speed using Lucas or Bosch convex lights?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    So who's up for the challenge? Top speed with concave Cibies compared with top speed using Lucas or Bosch convex lights?
    That's a good idea! You need to be assured of similar insect concentrations for the two runs of course.
    JohnW

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    I get the impression that many modern car headlamps are made for European standards of lighting. Where street/highway lighting is of good quality, and spread is not necessary or desirable in most situations. The worst I have tried is a halogen Ford Focus, which just lacked spread and penetration on both low and high beam. Euro car xenons seem to have better penetration, but still lack spread on dark roads. Hop into a just discontinued Commodore, and the lights are very good in both penetration and spread. I'm guessing in Europe they would be considered to have a very scattered beam as they would have been designed for Australian conditions where good spread is appreciated - the lights are one of the better aspects of the late Commodore.
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    I agree with Simon's interpretation. When we bought our first ever new car, a Peugeot 306 in 1995, I was very disappointed in the headlamps. We'd just moved on from our Virage with good QI Hella lamps and the Peugeot was totally substandard, as it remains.
    JohnW

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  23. #23
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I get the impression that many modern car headlamps are made for European standards of lighting. Where street/highway lighting is of good quality, and spread is not necessary or desirable in most situations. The worst I have tried is a halogen Ford Focus, which just lacked spread and penetration on both low and high beam. Euro car xenons seem to have better penetration, but still lack spread on dark roads. Hop into a just discontinued Commodore, and the lights are very good in both penetration and spread. I'm guessing in Europe they would be considered to have a very scattered beam as they would have been designed for Australian conditions where good spread is appreciated - the lights are one of the better aspects of the late Commodore.
    My Laguna ii has good spread and penetration
    Regards Col

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    Simon might have something. Although the lights on the Latitude are great. However my 2001 Landrover Discovery lights are not good at all. Even the R17 lights are better. Mind you the 17 has twin lights on each side. Two lights for spread and two of mine are spots for penetration.

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