Cleon OEM cam profiles
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Thread: Cleon OEM cam profiles

  1. #1
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    Default Cleon OEM cam profiles

    Does anyone have a listing for the different cam profiles for the cleon engine? Ive just bought a low milage R5 TS engine stamped C2J. I have a camshaft from a R5 Alpine on the shelf. Would it be worth it to change the camshaft before putting the engine unto my R8?

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    If this new engine was originally equipped with a Weber downdraft carburator, I don't think you will achieve more from the A camshaft.

    Frans.
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    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Hi Frans! There is a downdraft weber fitted. However that is also what is originally fitted to the R5A. I have always thought that the camshaft for the crossflow head was tilitally different from the others but then I saw you mentioning somewhere that your friend Johans car had a non-crossflow engine with R5A camshaft fitted.

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    I also thought a cross flow cam would be different. Perhaps he meant a cam re ground to the alpine specs?
    KB


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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    The R5A/G cam is totally different to the "wedge head" R5 type C2J motor, and will not work because of valve sequence. Hold the cams together and you will see straight away.

    Ray

    PS: I am having this discussion with a friend in Mexico who has put a R5 A/G head on an Allience block, and won't understand what I am talking about. They are similar to a Gordini cam and then he realised what I was talking about.

    Ray
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    Thanks for the info! The R5 TS engine 72hp as standard so allready a huge improvement in my -64 Major

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    The R5A/G cam is totally different to the "wedge head" R5 type C2J motor, and will not work because of valve sequence. Hold the cams together and you will see straight away.

    Ray

    PS: I am having this discussion with a friend in Mexico who has put a R5 A/G head on an Allience block, and won't understand what I am talking about. They are similar to a Gordini cam and then he realised what I was talking about.

    Ray
    Well done Ray. I haven't even thought about that one!

    Frans
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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    New member, 1st thread Post #14

    Reidar,
    Cat Cams grind good cams for Renault, and same as Alconi (no longer making) from South Africa, they modified Renault profiles for their profiles. The wedge head Cleon/Sierra motor can be made to be a lot of fun with the right cam. I always take a look at the Alconi profiles before deciding on some other cams, because I know them so well. "675" and "701" are the 2 street profiles I liked. They worked well on wedge heads, Gordini, 807, and the R5 A/G. So they are true Renault cams.

    Enjoy,
    Ray
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    Ray geckoeng

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    Lots of good info here. Sorry that I havent replied. I understand that I got confused about the RA5 camshaft profile and the oe camshaft for the Renault 5 Alpine witch I have sitting on the shelf.

    Lately "Real Power" from Brazil started a thread about the Sierra/Cleon based CHT1600 engines used in warios Ford and WV models witch apart from the 83,5mm crankshaft also came with some interresting camshafts. Some of them have a 292degrees duration...

    In the eighties quite a few Brazilian Ford Escorts were sold in Norway and I have most of the engine parts from one of them. I also have a workshop manual for it edited by the dealership.

    The specs on my CHT camshaft are 18-74-62-30 so 272 degrees duration. The camshaft lift is 5,794 and 5,829mm.

    According to my R5 Hynes manual my R5 TS engine(1400cc C2J) is like this 12-62-65-25, so 254/272 degree duration. The manual does not say however how mutch litft there is.

    Is it likely that there is some gain in fitting the CHT camshaft to the C2J engine?

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Reidar,

    I think that there will be a slight improvement because with the CHT cam the intake duration is much longer than the C2J cam. When higher performance (higher air flow) is needed then this longer intake duration will be of benefit. I don't think the lift will be changed much because it is a "family car" engine and not a performance model. If the cam lift is given as 5.8mm then the valve lift will be 5.8x1.5=8.7mm with the rocker ratio taken into account.

    Just keep in mind that the specs on the duration in your manuals are the advertised durations. When performance cuts are mentioned the duration will normally be the duration after the valve has already lifted 0.050" or 1.27mm.

    Regards, Frans
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    Thanks Frans!
    The specs on the valve timing/duration of the oe Renault camshafts are easy to find but the lift is not. So I had a look for this info on similar engines. The closest I could find was the Cortina GT camshaft as that is reproduced by Kentcams to be used in Formula Ford.
    By chance the Cortina GT camshaft is near identical to my CHT cam in duration and lift.
    Kent Cams - Product - Camshaft / Camshaft / XFGT
    It doesent mean anything of course. Just a coincidence.

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    If Alconi is still in business, is there a website to take a peak at what they do these days?
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Sorry to bump ancient thread, I overlooked Cat Cams as a supplier, (email Tighe in QLD) direct,

    Just so I don't have my Renault numbers mixed up. C1J Engine, ie this;

    camshaft details | CAT CAMS performance camshafts

    Suitable for the 810?

    I appreciate how they have springs and retainers matched, makes it all to easy.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Hi "bowie",

    That is a very nice cam grind, but I think a bit too strong for an original modified inlet manifold and small downdraft. It would work very well with a single 40 side draft (and in my opinion no Lynx inlet manifold) but a straight in side draft manifold with a good long tube exhaust manifold. And would be helped a lot by 2mm bigger inlet valves and 1.5mm exhaust valves. The valve springs and retainers would be good for reliability.

    Cleon OEM cam profiles-dscn0135.jpg

    My 2 cents, as Frans would say,
    Ray
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    Shoji,
    Both of the original founders of Alconi Developments have now passed on and the company no longer exists

    Henry
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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubyalpine View Post
    Shoji,
    Both of the original founders of Alconi Developments have now passed on and the company no longer exists

    Henry
    Aaahhh !!!!! But the profiles still exist.....

    Ray
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I feel like we need to start centralising some of this, (perhaps it is in the wiki already?) In my travels I don't think I have stumbled across any cam details

    And Ray, so C1J / C2J cams are compatible with the 810? or are the dimensions of the grind just what you are suggesting.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    "bowie",
    The lengths and positions of everything are the same, it is just the journals that could be different, in particular the front journal that runs in a bearing (waterpump alternator drive). Cat Cams fitted a sleeve to the cam I ran in the R12 block for Toms R5A I built for his A110. And you may need to have the "snout" cut off for your R12 block. It was supplied to me ready to install. So talk to them and explain what you want to do.

    By the way the single side draft is just a start for cam profile you are looking at. It will perform even better with twin 40s and even better with 4x40 throttle body injection. Then it will really be working. It would then be worthwhile looking at the dimensions of R5A/T conn rods for extra safety. But a lot more preparation is needed for this stage.

    Enjoy,
    Ray
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    Default cam, valve springs retainers

    Bowie, this is just my worth.
    if you wanted to keep the cost down,this is my recommendation:

    talk to Clive at CLIVE CAMS in melbourne about a regrind.he has many profiles that you can choose from.he has all the wade masters and much more.if you know what parameters you need ,i am sure he will sort you out.i highly recommend his quality and he is not expensive .i think about $180 for a regrind.be sure to send him your cam followers for resurfacing if you go this way.

    the valve springs in the picture are the ones i use succesfully in my car. they are available from Kelford Cams in NZ and are a perfect fit .you can use standard retainers with these springs

    cheers brian
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cleon OEM cam profiles-dsc_0146.jpg  

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Thanks for your help guys. Yes I'm thinking of a regrind and just starting to get organised.

    Brian, so thats where the Wades masters ended up. ok I'll give them a call too.

    Ray, I've organised 4 x 40mm CV carbs from a Kawasaki ZZR1100 (Keihin CVK-40) they are 99mm in width and should fit nicely in the engine bay after a couple of small V's are made from the ports. (290mm total width in the engine bay from the head) I was actually looking for the choke assemble for the 36/32 DGV, got distracted and these where cheap. I can still go back to plan A with the DGV if these are silly.

    But yes, cam, springs, valves and guides next.
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    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    More cam related hijack,

    I spoke to Clive in Melbourne (over email initially, will have to call him back tomorrow), gave him the spiel;

    -Chasing 11~:1
    -Elec ignition
    -Quad 40mm Carbs
    -Stock 73x77
    -Stock valves with a 3 angle (33mm in 30mm out)
    -4 into 1 exhaust to match what ever cam will work
    -Expecting power from 5k

    And he came back with,


    We would recommend our #0121 profile, which has the following:

    Lobe Lift: .276"
    Advertised Duration: 305°
    Duration @ .050": 240°
    Phase Angle: 106.75°

    If the profile can be ground straight onto your existing cam as it is, it would cost $207.00, however we may need to weld the lobes in order to put this profile onto your cam, which would cost $801.00 (plus postage, if applicable).


    Now for those playing at home, that is very similar to the A3 cossworth cam as listed at Tighe.

    https://tighecams.com.au/profiles2/ford1600.htm

    And that makes sense with what a lot of you have done prior with the standard valve size in these things.

    Suppose from here I'll give him a call and work out what stuff to send him, and we will see if the stock cam is suitable before then worrying about the rest of the rocker gear.

    I must say, despite inflation over the years that is still a small amount of coin for how it will change the thing, providing you can fuel and fire it I suppose.
    Last edited by bowie; 11th June 2018 at 11:49 AM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! potentz's Avatar
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    Default Clive cam

    Bowie,this is the cam i run from clive cams. 104a profile.
    Nice cam.i think will work for you.a little hotter at 50 thou lift.it hs a nice profile,similar to the r5 alpine upgade cams that were sold by renault.ie a wider nose on the lobe.
    That is if your carbies work as well as 40 dcoes.i cant comment on that as i dont know much about m/c carbies.
    Cheers

    Also this will suit a 1397 0r 1289 camwithout welding
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cleon OEM cam profiles-20180611_130931.jpg  
    Last edited by potentz; 11th June 2018 at 01:51 PM.
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Cheers Potentz,

    And that was ground out of your stock cam without any trouble?
    Last edited by bowie; 11th June 2018 at 01:51 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! potentz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Cheers Potentz,

    And that was ground out of your stock cam without any trouble?
    Affirmative
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