R10 Front end into Dauphine
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    Tadpole garagista's Avatar
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    Default R10 Front end into Dauphine

    Hi Guys,

    I've been lurking for a while now and have a few questions.

    I've just picked up a '62 Dauphine and a donor R10 ex track car/chassis complete with 16TS engine and plenty of spares.

    I read somewhere that to swap the R10 front end into the Dauphine requires swapping the sub-frames out? Is this correct or can the upper and lower control arms swap straight over to the Dauphine?

    Also, are there any known hiccups with swapping the R10 rear end in? I've had a quick look at the two and it seems that it's basically a bolt in affair besides the front trailing arm mount.

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    Cheers,

    Muz

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    Quote Originally Posted by garagista View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I've been lurking for a while now and have a few questions.

    I've just picked up a '62 Dauphine and a donor R10 ex track car/chassis complete with 16TS engine and plenty of spares.

    I read somewhere that to swap the R10 front end into the Dauphine requires swapping the sub-frames out? Is this correct or can the upper and lower control arms swap straight over to the Dauphine?

    Also, are there any known hiccups with swapping the R10 rear end in? I've had a quick look at the two and it seems that it's basically a bolt in affair besides the front trailing arm mount.

    Cheers,

    Muz
    Is this the one from Dave in Geelong?
    David Cavanagh

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    Tadpole garagista's Avatar
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    It sure is Dave Cavanagh. We got chatting the other week, an offer was made and I couldn't resist.

    I take it you know Dave and possibly the cars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by garagista View Post
    It sure is Dave Cavanagh. We got chatting the other week, an offer was made and I couldn't resist.

    I take it you know Dave and possibly the cars?
    Known Dave for about 35 years give or take. A lot of that R10 was built in my fathers back yard, It started as a brand new body shell from Renault Australia, you've got yourself one hell of a car there.
    David Cavanagh

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    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

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    Fellow Frogger! R10S FAN's Avatar
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    Details of such a beast?
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    Tadpole garagista's Avatar
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    There's very little of that 'new' body left now, hence the reshell into the dauphine

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    Basically, what you're planning is what I've done - but with a (3-stud) 4CV.

    Advice to me was that, no, one can't just swap R10 bits onto the Doaf cross-member. So we put the R10 one in. This isn't just a straightforward cut-out & weld-in exercise as the (identical looking) R10 one is a bit wider.

    How to handle this? Three solutions are floated. First, cut & shut the cross-member to shorten it. Second, "porta-power" the longitudinal chassis rails out a bit to accept the wider c-m. Third, notch the longitudinal chassis rails by cutting out part of the innermost skin so that the wider c-m fits. To restore strength to the rails at that point, an extra skin is added to the outside (wheel arch) side.

    We did the third of these (with, at that time, departmental & engineer approval). It worked out ok without dramas.

    As for the rear, if yours is a 3-stud Doaf, then the cross-member is the same as the R10 as for as I know. Anyway an R10 one just bolts in with no drama to the same 4 bolt holes.

    As for the semi-trailing toe-control radius arms, much depends on your fuel tank plans. The path of one arm would go right thorough the tank.

    I was moving the tank to the front anyway, so I used the R10 arms & cut the receiving c-m out of an R10 & welded it in under the 4CV footwells.

    If retaining the Doaf tank under the rear seat (an ideal position), then a geometrically inferior, but still functional, solution to toe-control is to fabricate a set of pure leading arms to run straight back from the outer end of the axle tubes to the end of the longitudinal rails onto which the rear engine mount bar attaches. These arms have some geometrical fight but that is accommodated by rubber bushes & they work well enough. During the 35 years of the 4CV being basically a 4CV shell on Dauphine-Gordini bits, I used that system happily.

    If that is the path you choose, then PM me if you wish & I'll email you a copy of a technical article I wrote years ago on them for Fourword, the 4CV Register's magazine, & recently had reprinted. That reprinting generated other owners to suggest other alternative designs & some are geometrically superior, although fiddlier.

    hope that helps, Peter

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Known Dave for about 35 years give or take. A lot of that R10 was built in my fathers back yard, It started as a brand new body shell from Renault Australia, you've got yourself one hell of a car there.
    There must be a story behind getting a new R10 shell.......
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    There must be a story behind getting a new R10 shell.......
    You could buy them as a spare part. I think my SA friend Peter Worley did this when his rally 10S started to resemble an over-ripe banana in body shape and rigidity. I am sure at least it came under serious investigation in about 1972 or 3.
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    Further to Peter's details, it is interesting about the trailing (or leading, depending on how you do it) arm geometry.

    My view is that the trailing arms on the R8/10 were not to locate the swing axles with respect to loading on trunnion pins or to locate swing axles with respect to worn pins. The later cars had much softer, better insulating mounts for the power plant and the trailing arms control the movement of the whole unit, i.e. stopping bump-steer. Happy to be corrected if someone knows better/more.

    Of course, if you have a 4CV with worn pins, not uncommon, then arms with good geometry will deal with that matter and, as Peter says, it is a wee bit fiddly to get the geometry correct. But there are a few around done really well.

    So good that another project car is emerging.

    As an aside, I wonder how many original Dauphines are left....

    Cheers
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    JohnW

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keith mcelroy View Post
    You could buy them as a spare part. I think my SA friend Peter Worley did this when his rally 10S started to resemble an over-ripe banana in body shape and rigidity. I am sure at least it came under serious investigation in about 1972 or 3.
    Goodness. I suppose you could. I wonder what they cost.
    JohnW

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    "My view is that the trailing arms on the R8/10 were not to locate the swing axles with respect to loading on trunnion pins or to locate swing axles with respect to worn pins. The later cars had much softer, better insulating mounts for the power plant and the trailing arms control the movement of the whole unit, i.e. stopping bump-steer. Happy to be corrected if someone knows better/more."

    Plausible but I fail to see why both functions might not be performed by the same arms.

    cheers! Peter
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Goodness. I suppose you could. I wonder what they cost.
    From memory, I THINK they were about $1100 ie about 50% new 10S price, but it is long ago, so...

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    "My view is that the trailing arms on the R8/10 were not to locate the swing axles with respect to loading on trunnion pins or to locate swing axles with respect to worn pins. The later cars had much softer, better insulating mounts for the power plant and the trailing arms control the movement of the whole unit, i.e. stopping bump-steer. Happy to be corrected if someone knows better/more."

    Plausible but I fail to see why both functions might not be performed by the same arms.

    cheers! Peter
    Oh, I agree with that. Just that I doubt it was the original purpose of the arms on the R8.
    JohnW

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    My original approach of a front fuel tank was to get a better balance front to rear , although I wanted to keep the tank away from any crumple zone so was tight to the heater chamber with an auto fire extinguisher wrapped around it . Just lay the Dauphine body over the R10 chassis . Probably less work as I changed a lot

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    Tadpole garagista's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Basically, what you're planning is what I've done - but with a (3-stud) 4CV.

    Advice to me was that, no, one can't just swap R10 bits onto the Doaf cross-member. So we put the R10 one in. This isn't just a straightforward cut-out & weld-in exercise as the (identical looking) R10 one is a bit wider.

    How to handle this? Three solutions are floated. First, cut & shut the cross-member to shorten it. Second, "porta-power" the longitudinal chassis rails out a bit to accept the wider c-m. Third, notch the longitudinal chassis rails by cutting out part of the innermost skin so that the wider c-m fits. To restore strength to the rails at that point, an extra skin is added to the outside (wheel arch) side.

    We did the third of these (with, at that time, departmental & engineer approval). It worked out ok without dramas.

    As for the rear, if yours is a 3-stud Doaf, then the cross-member is the same as the R10 as for as I know. Anyway an R10 one just bolts in with no drama to the same 4 bolt holes.

    As for the semi-trailing toe-control radius arms, much depends on your fuel tank plans. The path of one arm would go right thorough the tank.

    I was moving the tank to the front anyway, so I used the R10 arms & cut the receiving c-m out of an R10 & welded it in under the 4CV footwells.

    If retaining the Doaf tank under the rear seat (an ideal position), then a geometrically inferior, but still functional, solution to toe-control is to fabricate a set of pure leading arms to run straight back from the outer end of the axle tubes to the end of the longitudinal rails onto which the rear engine mount bar attaches. These arms have some geometrical fight but that is accommodated by rubber bushes & they work well enough. During the 35 years of the 4CV being basically a 4CV shell on Dauphine-Gordini bits, I used that system happily.

    If that is the path you choose, then PM me if you wish & I'll email you a copy of a technical article I wrote years ago on them for Fourword, the 4CV Register's magazine, & recently had reprinted. That reprinting generated other owners to suggest other alternative designs & some are geometrically superior, although fiddlier.

    hope that helps, Peter

    Sounds like one hell of a 4CV Peter.

    I've got both the dauphine and r10 sitting in my shop at the moment with the dauphine front end stripped so when i get a spare moment i'll pop the arms out of the 10 and try them on the dauphine. If there is a difference like you say, it's bugger all and makes me tempted to just fab up some new adjustable control arms for the dauphine crossmember to take the R10 stub rather than going to the hassle of swapping out the cross member.

    As for the tank, it's definantly going under the front. I have driven air cooled vw for a lot of my life so driving around with a fuel tank on top of my knees doesn't really bother me too much. When your time is up, your time is up.

    Thanks for the info Peter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolman View Post
    My original approach of a front fuel tank was to get a better balance front to rear , although I wanted to keep the tank away from any crumple zone so was tight to the heater chamber with an auto fire extinguisher wrapped around it . Just lay the Dauphine body over the R10 chassis . Probably less work as I changed a lot
    haha Toolman, very original Dave.

    Unfortunately cut and shuts like that are a big no no when it comes to registration and i'm fairly sure if you were to have that engineered you would have to go down the ICV path which is hugely costly and most likely would still not pass.

    The more of the dauphine floorpan i can keep, the better... albeit strengthened and i'll be sure to cross over as many of your tweaks on the r10 chassis as possible

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    G'day Muz,

    I managed to install R10 front bits into my Floride which reportedly is the same chassis as the Dauphine. That said, if I were doing it again I would re-use the original dauphine suspension arms including stubs with R10 hubs and brakes. The reason is that there is insufficient room in the side opening between chassis rail and body to do the job without modification to fit the R10 front arms.

    The dauphine stub axle will be 8mm too short for the R10 hub but this is easily corrected by simple machining of the r10 hub (I can explain that further if you are interested). Also you will need to have a Dauphine inner front wheel bearing and an R10 outer front bearing to make it work, but it does work and a hell of a lot easier to achieve a good result that changing the whole shebang to R10 equipment..

    Edit: Further to that, yes the R10 front brake setup will fit straight on to the Dauphine front stub (assuming it is the same as a Floride).
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 15th June 2016 at 09:38 AM.
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    Hi
    Just to add to the discussion for those interested. This is from my memory of things well back in the 'good ol' days'. So may be suspect !!

    We did a conversion on a R750 and it had rubber bushed front end not the previous metal greased type. The bottom wishbone of the 8/10 fitted on the existing crossmember OK. The top one did not. The inner mounting point was different. But there were holes punched in the crossmember at the appropriate point similar to the R8/10 crossmember. So we made a steel bush to put in these holes which we brazed in place. This bush accepted the bolt for the inner pivot of the upper wishbone. Worked OK and it did many fast miles with no problems with the front end.
    Jaahn

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    I recall that, back in the day ,fitting a 4 speed dauph rear end into a spider wheel 4cv required the inner guards on the rear modified ,as the top of the x member leans in where the guard leans out ,im thinking the 10 x member would be the same width ,,posibly not as tall ,rectifying the problem ,its been a long time, pugs
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    Thanks for all the advice guys, I've got some time up my sleeve Saturday morning so i'll hopefully strip the 10 and have a look at things then.

    Next question is who supplies suspension parts ie. bushes ball joints etc. in Australia? Are there nolathane or delrin options or am I best to knock some bushes up myself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    I recall that, back in the day ,fitting a 4 speed dauph rear end into a spider wheel 4cv required the inner guards on the rear modified ,as the top of the x member leans in where the guard leans out ,im thinking the 10 x member would be the same width ,,posibly not as tall ,rectifying the problem ,its been a long time, pugs
    Hi
    Yes it required a hole to be cut to allow the upper part of the shocker mount to fit. Oxy seems to spring to mind . Otherwise a bolt in job.

    We fitted the 8/10 trailing arms too with a bit of work. But basically they fitted OK with the fuel tank shifted to the front.

    I do believe that John W is correct with this analysis too;
    "My view is that the trailing arms on the R8/10 were not to locate the swing axles with respect to loading on trunnion pins or to locate swing axles with respect to worn pins. The later cars had much softer, better insulating mounts for the power plant and the trailing arms control the movement of the whole unit, i.e. stopping bump-steer. Happy to be corrected if someone knows better/more."

    In fact the French at the time were leading the world in controlling harsness from the radial tires and the suspension, and the R8 was outstanding in this area compared to ANY CAR let alone a budget car. Peugeot also was setting standards. The R8 design of the rear suspension isolation was covered in an article I had once but sadly lost since then
    Jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by keith mcelroy View Post
    You could buy them as a spare part. I think my SA friend Peter Worley did this when his rally 10S started to resemble an over-ripe banana in body shape and rigidity. I am sure at least it came under serious investigation in about 1972 or 3.
    I posted this in another thread a few months back:
    Interestingly, in my library of manuals and such. I have an R8 or R10 parts manual with M Higginson handwritten on the inside page. I hadn't made the connection until just now.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R10 Front end into Dauphine-image.jpg  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    G'day Muz,

    I managed to install R10 front bits into my Floride which reportedly is the same chassis as the Dauphine. That said, if I were doing it again I would re-use the original dauphine suspension arms including stubs with R10 hubs and brakes. The reason is that there is insufficient room in the side opening between chassis rail and body to do the job without modification to fit the R10 front arms.

    The dauphine stub axle will be 8mm too short for the R10 hub but this is easily corrected by simple machining of the r10 hub (I can explain that further if you are interested). Also you will need to have a Dauphine inner front wheel bearing and an R10 outer front bearing to make it work, but it does work and a hell of a lot easier to achieve a good result that changing the whole shebang to R10 equipment..

    Edit: Further to that, yes the R10 front brake setup will fit straight on to the Dauphine front stub (assuming it is the same as a Floride).
    And if you can find an early R8 hub set, they have the right bearing spacing for the Dauphine stub axle. Later R8 and R10s had slightly longer stub axles. You can then just bolt on the disc calliper brackets where the drum brake backing plate is riveted to the stub axle assembly. The holes line up exactly.
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    JohnW

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    "Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    I recall that, back in the day ,fitting a 4 speed dauph rear end into a spider wheel 4cv required the inner guards on the rear modified ,as the top of the x member leans in where the guard leans out ,im thinking the 10 x member would be the same width ,,posibly not as tall ,rectifying the problem ,its been a long time, pugs
    Hi
    Yes it required a hole to be cut to allow the upper part of the shocker mount to fit. Oxy seems to spring to mind . Otherwise a bolt in job."

    Yes, I forgot to mention that. But we're talking of a 3-stud Doaf and I don't think that the issue arises as it already has a box section cross member with concentric springs and dampers in the end towers.

    cheers! Peter

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