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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Default R12 Back

    Well I got my R12 registed today so there's one more back in circulation.
    Today was the first time I actually got to drive it further than the end of the driveway so was unsure how it would perform.
    Got me to the TMR office and back in one piece so all is good so far.
    Motor ran sweetly, gearbox was sometimes a bit hesitant in first and second, and the brakes were rubbish.
    The stopped eventually but boy you have to stand on them (GL without brake booster and silicone brake fluid).

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    Cheers Ren
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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Good on ya Ren!

    Where are the photos of you doing a thumbs up next to your licence plates?

    Not even jealous over here.

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    Fellow Frogger! Melc's Avatar
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    Congrats mate! Excellent news hope you get hours of driving pleasure
    4's 16's and Caravelle

  4. #4
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    R12's Rock!

    Stuey's worthless post #4,948 in a limited series of 5,000.
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    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    What happens when you get to 5000 posts? Barbecue and drinks at your place?

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    I'll start posting useful things.

    I am a fan of the R12, as is my family who had a soft spot for my old wagon.

    Mine was like this one, but no where near as nice. Same colour and trim. But not worth $7,900...

    http://www.carsales.com.au/private/d...-3716405/?Cr=0

    Sorry for the hijack Ren.
    Last edited by Stuey; 14th April 2016 at 10:18 PM.


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    I'm at the opposite end. 10 years ago I sold my last 12, delivered it to Melvegas and not seen it since.
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    With a bike available as well! One for you Melc. Will match your sedan.

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    Fellow Frogger! Melc's Avatar
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    Yeah Sunny, its close, nice looking car, and I would like one as a work van. But you know that 12's aren't my thing.
    4's 16's and Caravelle

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    Haven't you got a 12 sedan?
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Melc's Avatar
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    It found me
    4's 16's and Caravelle

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    Well I got my R12 registed today so there's one more back in circulation.
    Today was the first time I actually got to drive it further than the end of the driveway so was unsure how it would perform.
    Got me to the TMR office and back in one piece so all is good so far. Motor ran sweetly, gearbox was sometimes a bit hesitant in first and second, and the brakes were rubbish. The stopped eventually but boy you have to stand on them (GL without brake booster and silicone brake fluid). Cheers Ren
    Great news. Cupla things:

    1. I've no idea what you mean "gearbox was sometimes a bit hesitant".

    2. Brakes should be pretty good regardless of booster or not. Seized callipers, rear pistons? Not bled properly? Master cylinder? New pads not worn in (wouldn't make them "rubbish" anyway).

    As usual, it is a journey to get it all done, bit by bit.

    Congrats.
    JohnW

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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Great news. Cupla things:

    1. I've no idea what you mean "gearbox was sometimes a bit hesitant".

    2. Brakes should be pretty good regardless of booster or not. Seized callipers, rear pistons? Not bled properly? Master cylinder? New pads not worn in (wouldn't make them "rubbish" anyway).

    As usual, it is a journey to get it all done, bit by bit.

    Congrats.
    Thanks for all your comments guys.
    It's still a work in progress as I've basically done enough to get the car mobile and will attend to the other items at leisure.
    The body shell is straight but there is some rust bubbling through in the usual places (rear seam on the front guards, door bottom seam, etc.) so will need to replace these or get repaired before I do a full paint.

    The interior is pretty good and must have been covered for most of it's life. Even the top of the dash is still in one piece!
    The sunvisors flop and the static seatbelts might get swapped for some inertia belts but that's about it for the interior.
    Oh, and this car has never had a radio or stereo, no aerial fitted, no speaker holes, all pristine. I'll probably keep it that way and just listen to the roar of the motor and the rumble of the tyres.

    I'll probably change the Solex carb for the Weber 32 carb later. The few extra chevaux will help.
    I have all the parts, just need to have the exhaust manifold blasted and painted and fit them on, (and maybe get the Weber overhauled first).

    Cheers
    Ren



    Hello John,

    By hesitant I mean it took a healthy shove to get into gear. They're not crunching or anything, just take a bit of a heave.

    The brake pedal is firm and doesn't slowly sink to the floor so I don't think it bleeding.
    I had to pull the front stub axles off to do the driveshafts and the front brakes are fine. Plenty of meat on the pads and the rotors are barely worn. It's not pulling to one side so the calipers aren't sticking (or they're both sticking by the same amount which would be odd)
    Didn't do anything to the back apart from adjusting the handbrake. (If it ain't broke don't fix it).

    I have a theory in that the car is sitting a bit low at the back (back springs maybe gone a bit soft) and the proportioning valve is cutting off the rear brakes so am stopping on the fronts only.
    I know most of the braking is done by the front anyway but the backs do provide some stopping power.
    I'll check it out by jacking up the rear under the axle and then under the body (with the axle hanging) and check the difference in the braking.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

  14. #14
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Sounds like a nice project car.

    The rear brake thing does not makes sense quite as you've described it. If the car is low, there is more pressure to the back (i.e. less pressure when high, to stop rear lockup when empty). However, I just wonder whether perversely the car is now braking more strongly with the rear drums, "thinking" there's a big load in the boot. I guess we are all used to power brakes too. Drive it for a couple of days and you might judge the brakes differently?

    The gearbox effort is surprising to me - clutch adjustment would be one cause. My experience with them is that the second gear synchro baulking weakens first (used the most?) - certainly in our 12s and others with the 330-derived gearboxes their has been good baulking action, that is the resistance as the synchromesh does it stuff. I think if I were to drive a new 10/12/16 I might find the gearbox heavy in that way - our Scenic is extremely light in the gearbox. It might be just fine.

    Cheers
    Last edited by JohnW; 18th April 2016 at 10:21 AM.
    JohnW

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    COL
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    I'm with John there on the brakes. A good test is to drive on a bit of gravel and apply the brakes hard and see if the rears or the fronts lock first.

    There is a procedure for setting up brake corrector valve but you will need brake fittings and a high pressure gauge.


    On the gear change being a little hard to get into gear, it could be a bit of play in the linkage. There is a couple of places where they wear.

    1) At the bottom of the gear stick where the linkage connects to the gear stick, there is two small bushes.

    2) Where the linkage connects to the selector shaft at the back of the gearbox. There is a roll pin that holds the linkage to the selector shaft. The wear occurs on the linkage side so is quite easy to fix.
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    Regards Col

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  16. #16
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    My understanding of the limiting valve is that if the brake bias is to the front then the front would drop which lifts the rear.
    The rear lifts releasing more fluid to the back and as the back brakes do more work the rear drops some which then closes the limiting valve again (partially or fully). So if it's down at the back the car thinks the back brakes are doing too much and limiter will be closed.
    Have I got this wrong?
    I'll have a look in the workshop manual.

    Of course if the back brakes aren't working it could be the limiting valve is stuck regardless of the body position which is not uncommon.

    Cheers
    Ren
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

  17. #17
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    That isn't the way I understand the system. Not that I'm infallible or anything like that. My understanding has always been that, like the R16 and various models of that time, the valve is aimed at preventing rear wheel lockup, so reduces pressure to the rears the higher the suspension is. If the car is low at the rear, typically due to a full boot or rear seat passengers, it is harder to lock the rears (as the car is heavier), so more pressure can be allowed at the back without lockup. And of course with more weight, it is good to increase the total braking effort.

    You have a point about whether the valve is stuck. Have you changed fluid and bled the brakes?

    Good luck with it.
    JohnW

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    I would change the gearbox oil and you MUST use Castrol VMX 80 or the old original Elf equivalent. If you do not use these older oils then you will eventually wear the 1st - 2nd syncro rings. This will happen, guaranteed, with the modern multi grade oils regardless of what the sales guys try to tell you. I have 4 cars with these gear boxes, and have had, for many years, and have tried a number of types of oils. Castrol VMX 80 is the most available of these older oils.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    That isn't the way I understand the system. Not that I'm infallible or anything like that. My understanding has always been that, like the R16 and various models of that time, the valve is aimed at preventing rear wheel lockup, so reduces pressure to the rears the higher the suspension is. If the car is low at the rear, typically due to a full boot or rear seat passengers, it is harder to lock the rears (as the car is heavier), so more pressure can be allowed at the back without lockup. And of course with more weight, it is good to increase the total braking effort.

    You have a point about whether the valve is stuck. Have you changed fluid and bled the brakes?

    Good luck with it.
    John is quite right about how the rear limiter works on an R12. It can be seen to be free and working if the rear is jacked up via the sills and the brake is applied whilst you are watching the valve. The centre section surrounded by the boot should move outward toward the spring/torsion regulator arm if it is OK, cutting off brake pressure to the rear brakes.

    Chances are it is frozen, given the lack of use over a long period, and that they often were 20 years ago, guessing not much has changed. I have rekitted these many moons ago with I think motorcycle cups. Set up well the system works fine and I can remember spending spending some hours driving up and down in a new estate setting the arm on the rear of my R15TS to get the best out of the brakes.

    I agree with Sunroof on the VMX80. Don't use 80/90 as for whatever reason the synchros will fail. I did also used to like adding a dose of Nulon Gearbox additive with the VMX80. Now I use Redline Lightweight Shockproof oil, that I do believe is superior, but at $110 for 4 Quarts is not inexpensive, although the claim is it is good for 400 000 Klm
    Last edited by alan moore; 19th April 2016 at 11:40 AM.
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I would change the gearbox oil and you MUST use Castrol VMX 80 or the old original Elf equivalent. If you do not use these older oils then you will eventually wear the 1st - 2nd syncro rings. This will happen, guaranteed, with the modern multi grade oils regardless of what the sales guys try to tell you. I have 4 cars with these gear boxes, and have had, for many years, and have tried a number of types of oils. Castrol VMX 80 is the most available of these older oils.
    Hello Sunroof,
    Yes, I changed the gearbox oil and it was Castrol something or other 80, can't remember the letters.
    I did say for older gearboxes on the bottle so is probably the right stuff.
    Was about a bottle and a half to fill.
    This is my 5th R12 and I don't recall ever having a gearbox fail on me, even when pulling trailers.
    Never had to do any work on any gearbox apart from topping up the oil.
    It's probably fine, I just need to get used to them again.
    It's about 6 years since my last 12 and I've been driving automatics ever since so am a bit out of practice.


    Cheers
    Ren
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    That isn't the way I understand the system. Not that I'm infallible or anything like that. My understanding has always been that, like the R16 and various models of that time, the valve is aimed at preventing rear wheel lockup, so reduces pressure to the rears the higher the suspension is. If the car is low at the rear, typically due to a full boot or rear seat passengers, it is harder to lock the rears (as the car is heavier), so more pressure can be allowed at the back without lockup. And of course with more weight, it is good to increase the total braking effort.

    You have a point about whether the valve is stuck. Have you changed fluid and bled the brakes?

    Good luck with it.
    Hello John,

    Okay, so they're doing the opposite to what I thought they would do.
    Well that kills my theory about the dropped bum being the possible cause of the ills.

    I haven't bled the brakes yet or checked the limiter as the car was being driven up until December and the brakes were said to be okay. The pedal is firm so I don't think there is air in the system and I didn't disconnect any brake lines when I was working on the front end so there shouldn't have been any air introduced to the system.
    I might get a new proportioning valve anyway as they're easy to find new on Ebay and they're pretty cheap.
    So for peace of mind I can whack one in and it will probably last until I (or the car) die.

    One day I'll put a brake booster in to lighten the pedal.
    I've got about 4 of them but I'll need new brake lines made up.
    The brakes won't work any better but at least they'll be lighter.

    Cheers
    Ren.
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  22. #22
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    I agree with Sunroof on the VMX80. Don't use 80/90 as for whatever reason the synchros will fail. I did also used to like adding a dose of Nulon Gearbox additive with the VMX80. Now I use Redline Lightweight Shockproof oil, that I do believe is superior, but at $110 for 4 Quarts is not inexpensive, although the claim is it is good for 400 000 Klm
    That's an interesting oil, when you look at the Redline website. Do you use it in all your Renault transaxles Alan? I haven't changed gearbox oil for quite a while, certainly at least one NSW trip on the R8, so maybe that should be the next one.
    JohnW

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    Hello Sunroof, It's probably fine, I just need to get used to them again. It's about 6 years since my last 12 and I've been driving automatics ever since so am a bit out of practice. Cheers Ren
    With any luck, that's all it is. You might even find the brakes feel fine after a few weeks. My R8 gearbox was set up with new energiser springs in about mid-1980s and I haven't touched it since - I've a feeling it has had multigrade gear oils at one stage or another but it hasn't been a high mileage car for a while now. I think I'll follow Alan's lead and try the Redline next change (soon).

    Enjoy....
    JohnW

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  24. #24
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    That's an interesting oil, when you look at the Redline website. Do you use it in all your Renault transaxles Alan? I haven't changed gearbox oil for quite a while, certainly at least one NSW trip on the R8, so maybe that should be the next one.
    Ren, I've located the transaxle oil in Perth that Alan Moore is using. The racing shop that sells it has an older bloke with three cars with Hewland transaxles and he says it is just brilliant and he uses it himself. He pulls down the transaxles and cannot find a wear mark on anything. Worth thinking about maybe, depending upon your pocket. I'd rate Alan's opinion highly. I've bought some for mine!
    JohnW

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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Okay, I'll hunt around for some of the Redline.
    I've seen Alan's cars and yes, I'd rate his opinion highly.
    If he says the Redline is the duck's guts then that's good enough for me.
    $110 for four quarts is a lot but you only need about 1.5 ltrs per fill so should last a while.

    Cheers
    Ren
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