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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 1397

    Hi all, I'm looking to rebuild a 1397cc 847.

    Would an R5 Alpine non-crossflow head fit & is it worth it?

    1397-r5alpine1.jpg

    Also, would these fit? Renault 5 Alpine (not turbo) full set of pistons-liners, 76mm.
    Engine type 840.25, 1397cc

    1397-r5alpine.jpg

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  2. #2
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    Urn, there's no such thing as a non-crossflow R5 Alpine head.

    A cross flow hemi head from an R5 Alpine fits but would require a different cam. The pistons from on A5 would, I suggest, have their domes foul on a non hemi head's valves - note the cut-outs for the hemi's opposed valves.

    In my view, the R5 Alpine motor is the best of the Sierra series (it benefited from not having the troublesome flame ports of the R8G). However, loads of people have had very satisfactory results from normal (cam, carb, compression. . . .) modification of the inline valve head standard 1.4. I suspect that that path might give you most "bang for your buck".

    cheers! Peter

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    No worries, was just curious. That was how they were advertised on ebay. Cheers

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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Wolverine,
    Tell us the full story of what you have and where you want to go, and why.

    If the forum has a lot of the picture you get better information, that you can use properly.

    Ray
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    Fellow Frogger! potentz's Avatar
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    judging by the shape of the combustion chambers,that looks like a standard 1397/1289/1100 sierra type head.

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    Default joy !

    Hi,
    Just a little comment from my experience ! If you have experience then you may not need this but if not then read on
    To have a joyful experience with a rebuilt "sports" motor there are really only two things to look out for, apart from other obvious ones.
    1 select a balanced set of modifications. So they all complement the others. Do not have extreme in one area and ignore another or the whole will be disappointing.
    2 select a suitable cam grind for your use. A 'sports' grind will be a joy to drive on the road combined with other mods. A racing grind may not be such fun !!
    Cheers jaahn
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  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi,
    Just a little comment from my experience ! If you have experience then you may not need this but if not then read on
    To have a joyful experience with a rebuilt "sports" motor there are really only two things to look out for, apart from other obvious ones.
    1 select a balanced set of modifications. So they all complement the others. Do not have extreme in one area and ignore another or the whole will be disappointing.
    2 select a suitable cam grind for your use. A 'sports' grind will be a joy to drive on the road combined with other mods. A racing grind may not be such fun !!
    Cheers jaahn
    Could not have improved more on this statement

    Frans
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  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! potentz's Avatar
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    Icon10 Poem # 1397

    The pistons are balanced,

    As are rods and crank.

    The flywheel is lightened,

    Wont break the bank.

    The cam is important,

    As is the breathing,

    Add a megajolt,

    The result will be pleasing.

    Dial in the camshaft, fit matched valve springs,

    Get the Dcoes jetted right,

    Laugh, smile and hang on tight
    J-man, Frans, bowie and 3 others like this.

  9. #9
    Tadpole
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    I'm thinking of taking the 1397 out 1480....

    Can someone tell me which Mazda 78mm pistons people are using?

    What cam grind specs, brands are available?

    Any ideas on where to get a sidedraft manifold?

    I'm not chasing the 110 fwkw I had in a 1565 that I had 20 years ago......

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Wolverine,
    There have been numerous threads on the Mods to Sierra motors. I would suggest some research.

    Frans can give you the parts and procedures for the Mazda pistons. And "potenz" can give his experience of a well built motor.

    Ray
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
    I'm thinking of taking the 1397 out 1480....

    Can someone tell me which Mazda 78mm pistons people are using?

    What cam grind specs, brands are available?

    Any ideas on where to get a sidedraft manifold?

    I'm not chasing the 110 fwkw I had in a 1565 that I had 20 years ago......
    The cam to go for would be a cosworth A3 grind for a fast road cam with good torque, or the A6 grind for a more race type motor. These are from a mob in northern NSW that will grind mail order.

    For a single DCOE manifold, try to search for a s/h Lynx. Twin webers would need a custom manifold made or adapt the Datsun one like potenz.
    KB


  12. #12
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Potentz that was just beautiful
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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Wolverine,

    I would be careful to go 78 mm unless you have head gaskets made. If you use 78 mm pistons then the standard gasket can be used but you will have to be ultra careful with the alignment of it. The play you get on the gasket with the head bolts in, is far too much and the fire ring will be in the combustion area and wont last you a week. If you want to go full on then you can do it but make sure that you have a second dowel in the block and head to align the gasket.

    First get hold of a manifold with twin side draughts or a single AND very important, what is your extractor going to look like, before
    you decide on a cam.

    What fuel do you want to use or have available for CR calcs. What valvesprings will be needed for your rev range?

    I'm not being difficult and maybe you know all this but it is questions that pop up to build something a little special.

    Frans.
    Last edited by Frans; 31st March 2016 at 06:50 AM.
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  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Wolverine,

    I would be careful to go 78 mm unless you have head gaskets made. If you use 78 mm pistons then the standard gasket can be used but you will have to be ultra careful with the alignment of it. The play you get on the gasket with the head bolts in, is far too much and the fire ring will be in the combustion area and wont last you a week. If you want to go full on then you can do it but make sure that you have a second dowel in the block and head to align the gasket.

    First get hold of a manifold with twin side draughts or a single AND very important, what is your extractor going to look like, before
    you decide on a cam.

    What fuel do you want to use or have available for CR calcs. What valvesprings will be needed for your rev range?

    I'm not being difficult and maybe you know all this but it is questions that pop up to build something a little special.

    Frans.

    Cheers for the advice Frans.

    I've located new single & twin DCOE intakes in Europe.... I plan on twin 40s

    I've got an old set of Sonic extractors that I'd like to have re-made in stainless.

    I'll only use 98 octane fuel & am thinking of 9.5:1 or 10:1 compression.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Wolverine,

    What type of Renault do you have?

    I agree with the twin DCOEs. There is a later model head with the intake ports further apart than the old ones. This makes the ports more straight in relation to the valves and it is a better performing head. They were used on the R9 and R11 models. If you can locate one of them you will have the opportunity to use a Datsun twin DCOE manifold and make it fit.

    If I were you I would not go with the Sonic extractors. Seeing that you are willing to spend money on an extractor I would rather have one made that is a calculated one for the cam you are using and the rev range you want.

    I have my profile cam that you can use and with the above mentioned extractor and sidedraughts you will have power as low down as 2000 rpm right through to 7500 and more.

    The 98 octane is a blessing but that CR is too low (my opinion). I would think it should be more in the region of at least 10.5:1 up to 10.8:1. If you start with 10.5:1 then you have at least one shave left for future that will then give you a 10.8:1.

    Frans.
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    Hi,
    The twin DCOEs are worth it for the sound Nothing else like it !

    IMHO going for the extra compression is too far. Why do it for a tiny gain with what is an out of date head design which would need to be carefully shaped to avoid problems. No knock sensors or the like to retard the ignition if the fuel is a bit off, and with that glorious noise you may not hear a bit of pinging back there. It is a sports engine after all
    Jaahn

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Why do it for a tiny gain with what is an out of date head design.
    Jaahn
    Go and wash your mouth with soap! With this mod (if it is a R8/10) it will outrun a R1135. Even if the R1135 has a newer type 1400 Gordini head on it. Or being more PC, The Gordini will have to be tuned very good.

    Frans.
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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! potentz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Go and wash your mouth with soap! With this mod (if it is a R8/10) it will outrun a R1135. Even if the R1135 has a newer type 1400 Gordini head on it. Or being more PC, The Gordini will have to be tuned very good.

    Frans.
    i have and taste this recipe on a regular basis.you will be amazed!!!! lowdown,up high, in between,the heels are clean!!!
    Last edited by potentz; 2nd April 2016 at 08:50 AM.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Go and wash your mouth with soap!
    i have and taste this recipe on a regular basis.

    Now, Now Boys, there are those among us that have not witnessed the magic "Wedge Head'. We come from the land of Alconi who helped develop wondrous things !! We need to show by example.

    Ray
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    "Adding a bit more spice to the pot" I came across this picture on Aussie Frogs, by Steve K, and he tells me he had the pop top wedge pistons made in Oz, made by Special Piston Services in Dandenong. Quite amazing !!!!!

    1397-sierra-pop-top-pistons.jpg
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  21. #21
    Tadpole
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    Default 1397





    Are these worth using? If so, I'd have them re-made in stainless.....



    These are my twin 45s I plan on using, still tempted to use the 807 or 841 I have lying around



    Sent from my iPhone using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Last edited by Wolverine; 3rd April 2016 at 10:05 PM.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Frans or others can explain that you get different advantages and disadvantages from 4:1 or 4:2:1 extractors but I would say as a general comment that any extractor is better than no extractor although Dave Collier maintains that the original R12 cast manifold gives as much power and less noise than a set of extractors. as Frans explained you can have tuned length exhaust which will maximise your cam and head, compression ratio etc. any old extractors may or may not achieve that same effect.

    It is possible to use the std cast manifold and twin carbs, but it usually means a custom fab job and space to access and tighten the manifold nuts can be difficult.

    I would say use the details Frans offered and compare these extractors to those before committing.
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    KB


  23. #23
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    What are you putting the engine in?
    As it looks like you have an 807 type (807-10 or 11?)with the inlet manifolds and Webers, this engine can be fitted to R8/10/12,and have also been fitted to 4CV and Dauphine, and make a lot more power than the Sierra type motor, but does require a bit more work when fitting to a 4CV, Dauphine, or R8/10.

    Actually looking at the extractors, an R12 would be the intended choice of vehicle for the engine it seems. The extractors look like a reasonable design and generally for warm street type cams approx 15" primaries, and about 19" secondaries (total length 34")would be OK, without me actually doing the math or knowing the cam timing. Primary pipe inside diameter 1.25", secondaries 1.5".

    When working these things out to the highest degree the cam,(when the exhaust valve opens), peak torque and Hp RPM and many other things are taken into account. The above numbers would probably give peak torque around 4500 and peak Hp closer to 6000.
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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    Go and wash your mouth with soap!
    i have and taste this recipe on a regular basis.

    Now, Now Boys, there are those among us that have not witnessed the magic "Wedge Head'. We come from the land of Alconi who helped develop wondrous things !! We need to show by example.

    Ray
    This is where I will have to rely on others. I do not have an example but maybe if Ross can describe his experiences wit his old wedge motor and Harry can relate to this as well with his wedge motor, before the G, and maybe Potentz can back his story up with his doings. If you want more, I can get old ZA guys to share their stories as well.
    Frans.
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

  25. #25
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    Two comments:

    First, my understanding of 4:2:1 vs. 4:1 extractors is that, as a general rule, the former work better in mid to high range situation & the latter work better at high revs. So, for a fast road car, the former seem indicated &, for competition, the latter.

    Second, while 45 DCOEs might be apt for maximum flow at high revs, 40 DCOEs seem a better bet for a fast road car of 1.4 litres.

    Others more expert than me will no doubt pass comment on these remarks.

    cheers! Peter
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