Confudeled about this TL and TS business.
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 31
Like Tree11Likes

Thread: Confudeled about this TL and TS business.

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Concord City, Sir.
    Posts
    3,376

    Default Confudeled about this TL and TS business.

    What did it actually mean?

    I'm getting a general idea from the search button here, but was there any hard and fast rule as to what the different trim levels where supposed to include?

    I suppose as the 12 is nearly drivable.. I'm thinking after the R1302's (15TS/17TL) and the R1313's (17TS /G) and what sort of bits I can scrounge from them.

    As far as our Australian cars are concerned, is this pretty close?

    Advertisement


    R1302
    -4sp box (lower diff the then 12, 3400 @ 100km vs 3800 @ 100km)
    -Drum rear (same as 12 wagon + Solid on early and + vented front on late
    -21mm front, 16mm rear (20mm rear for late R1302's)
    -807-10 engine?


    R1313/ R1317
    -5sp box
    -disc brake rear + vented front
    -21mm front, 20mm rear sway bars*
    -807-12 engine + Fuel injection

    Now what mechanical bits do they share? Hubs and drive shafts? Are the beams in the rear the same?


    * I thought the 17G's were just re-marketed TS's But there are differences? Simon in another thread quotes the R1317G's as 24mm front and 24.5mm rear) ?


    Cheers everyone.
    Dan
    Last edited by bowie; 17th March 2016 at 06:15 PM.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Aus.
    Posts
    17,957

    Default

    It's all mix and match, mate. At your own risk!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

  3. #3
    COL
    COL is offline
    A110 COL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Van Diemen's Land
    Posts
    4,020

    Default

    The R15TS and R17TL were basically the same mechanically.

    The r17TS/G had the fuel injected motor, wider rims, bigger stabiliser bars, 5 speed box, 4 wheel disc brakes, better seats.

    Thats all I can think of at the moment, all the mechanical components will fit into an R12.
    Kim Luck and Shoji like this.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Concord City, Sir.
    Posts
    3,376

    Default

    Oh! So the 15TS and 17TL had drum brakes at the rear?

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Oh! So the 15TS and 17TL had drum brakes at the rear?
    yes.

    All the bits do fit R12's but you may need some alterations for example the 5 speed box will fit in an auto 12 but a manual 12 has to have a hump welded into the front floor. Gearshift has to be modified to be practical. The 807, 843, or844 motors won't really fit into an early R12. The cross member under the battery needs to have a bend in it.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,090

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Oh! So the 15TS and 17TL had drum brakes at the rear?
    Yes. mine does.
    I would guess that the 15's had solid front disc's and the 17tl had solid or vented front disc's as mine does.
    When you do search for front rotors the two types come up.
    I do wish mine would grow up to be a TS. Hmmm. Disc all round with five speed and more HP.
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Concord City, Sir.
    Posts
    3,376

    Default

    Many thanks all

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,090

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Oh! So the 15TS and 17TL had drum brakes at the rear?
    Sorry just checked my parts book for the 15 they also came with vented front disc's depending on 13XX
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    3,522

    Default

    The rear drum brakes on the R15 TS and the R17 TL are a larger diameter drum than the R 12 sedan.
    But they are the same size as the R 12 wagon.
    Shoji and Sunroof like this.
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




    .2010 Holden Commodore Ute
    2001 Renault Sport Clio Cup 27 of 85
    1973 Alpine Renault A310/4 1600 VE

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Concord City, Sir.
    Posts
    3,376

    Default

    So between these 4sp and 5sp boxes, are the drive shafts interchangeable?

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  11. #11
    COL
    COL is offline
    A110 COL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Van Diemen's Land
    Posts
    4,020

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    So between these 4sp and 5sp boxes, are the drive shafts interchangeable?
    Yes they are.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,090

    Default

    Good time to ask....I want a five speed box for mine. Who's has one? I'm serious!
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! G4ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    804

    Default

    And the 17TS had an oil cooler.
    There is a law against doing more than 100kmh...there's no law on how fast you get to 100kmh!!!

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Geraldton
    Posts
    1,569

    Default

    Wanna swap a 5 speed box for an 807 motor?
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,525

    Default

    Not too sure about the R17TL but the R12 has to have brackets welded to the chassis for the 5 speed gearbox rear mounts. Also not so long ago the rubber mounts were not available. Although there was a rumour that Meca parts? or someone similar was going to make hard competition versions. Not sure if they did. Also it was possible to modify R5 Turbo one's to suit but they to would most likely be like rocking horse s####. The 17 TS/Gordini fuel injection is hard to get parts for and it is normal to replace with Weber carbs. If you use the standard down draft from R15/17TL then power will not be increased by a whole lot. Two by dual side drafts are more normal fittings and they can be sized and jetted the same as or similar to the R12 G which had them standard. Then you need to find or build a manifold for them and stuff with return springs and accelerator cable. All this is possible but you do need to have a bit more than basic skills or the money to pay some one to do it. Usually at great expense as there is a lot of unseen and unexpected stuffing around. The R15TS/17TL and early R12G motors were 1565cc. The common replacement pistons/liners for R12G and others in Australia from Caravelle were the early competition 1596cc version, later available in higher compression versions from Meca parts. The standard compression versions are available for around $1000 plus postage. The high compression versions probably nearer to $1500-2000. R17TS/G had a capacity of 1605cc. All these engine rebuild bits are available from Meca Parts. I think a lot of stuff about these conversions has been written else where on A/F so perhaps a search on here would find more info. Some one who has done this recently and knows the problems and fixes should write this up and make a sticky, as it has all been done before and will be again. Unfortunately I did it 25 years ago and while we still have the car my memory of what had to be done not so good. Also rear discs are from the front of an R12 but the calipers hard to find second hand but available new and very expensive. All doable but takes time and money. The end result though is great fun to drive especially if kept Q car like in appearance. An R12 rebuilt with R17G bits goes better than the 17 does. Perhaps because it is lighter. Well mine did anyway.
    Shoji and bowie like this.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Brisbane/Australia
    Posts
    2,051

    Default

    Bowie,

    Check the sticky "Renault in Australia - Useless Info File" put up by Simon. It probably has all you need to know about R12,R15,R17 TL/TS etc.
    As for scrounging bits from the R15's and R17's to put in a 12, I think there were around 10,000 R12's sold in Australia and all the versions of R15's and R17's would probably be less than 1000 and most of the 17 would be TL's so would have 4 speed boxes. (I'm sure Simon or others would have the numbers somewhere). So there are very few R15 & R17 to cannibalise for parts and what parts there are, are usually used to keep R15's & R17's on the road. All the R15's and R17TL had 4 speed boxes and only the R17TS or the R17G had 5 speed boxes.

    Regarding the 5 speed boxes, I am of the belief that the 5speed boxes had a wider diff than the 352 boxes in the 12's so would need shorter driveshafts. I can't remember who told me as it's been quite a while. Perhaps that just refers to the R18 5 speed box and the R17TS 5 speed box is the same width as the 4 speed (would make sense as most R15 & R17 were 4 speed so could keep the same driveshafts). I'm happy to be corrected by those that have actually done the conversion or have a R15/R17 parts list.
    I have a R18 5 speed box that I hope to put into the 12 one day so I will have to find out for sure eventually.

    Cheers
    Ren
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,090

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    Wanna swap a 5 speed box for an 807 motor?
    I have no parts to swap. I'm just starting out, ExFrogger.
    But I'll buy it off you. $$
    Sorry Bowie. Getting of track here a bit
    Were there option for power steering. they would be rare!. the 15 parts book say's no, but the 17??
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,090

    Default

    I agree with Sunroof. There is a lot you can do with your 807 motors providing no major damage to the block crank. Been studying a little to become familiar. The best bit is the piston and liners. No need to throw away the block if you can't bore out any further like other engines.
    It's just how far and how much you want to spend.
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Shoji's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mandurah WA
    Posts
    1,090

    Default

    Yes Ren.

    A compatibility bullet point list would be great to refer to see what is needed for our 15/17
    Has any one done NG3 boxes in 17's?
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Ipswich, Queensland.
    Posts
    1,895

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoji View Post
    I have no parts to swap. I'm just starting out, ExFrogger.
    But I'll buy it off you. $$
    Sorry Bowie. Getting of track here a bit
    Were there option for power steering. they would be rare!. the 15 parts book say's no, but the 17??
    No power steering on any 12,15 or 17 sold in Australia, and none I have heard of, although my Haynes book talks of a power steer option, so maybe in the US.
    Shoji likes this.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    loneliness capital of the world
    Posts
    8,866

    Default

    The upmarket 15 and the 17TL have the 352 box (or some version of it) just like the 12 just with a different clutch cover to fit the 807 engine, so those are the valuable bits.

    The 17TS and G box is 365. Same width across diff outdrives as 352, bigger crownwheel so not swappable. Casings are identical, but the 352 lacks the threaded holes for the sandwich plate.

    Mounts very different, 365 NLA, plus brackets will need fabricating (and hump in the floor hammered out).

    NG3 in a 12/15/17 chassis is a no go (or you can do it but I don‘t think it‘s worth the effort).

    R18 had the 395, this is the one wider across the diff outdrives by 1cm per side. Shorter driveshafts are available ex Eastern Europe, the trick is to have someone on the inside. The clutch lever at the box is longer, to give a softer pedal, which by the way is different too. No biggie. Clutch sheath retainer at block is of course different. If you find them, you keep them.
    Brackets need to be sourced off a 17G/TS or fabricated. Mounts, see above.

    The ‘stick control rods are a bit different between the 5speeders with the 365 lateral control bolted to the chassis whilst the 395 is bolted to the back cover of the box. No biggie. 17TS is going to lose reverse when the engine mounts go because of this and the gear stick is going to tilt weirdly sideways.

    I have a rebuilt 395 and a pair of new short driveshafts made by GKN Glenzer/Spicer, but I am going to skin you alive for the setup. No brackets/mounts, but I have the original 17G brackets to serve as model.

    If anyone dares, they can send me a PM.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 17th March 2016 at 06:26 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Concord City, Sir.
    Posts
    3,376

    Default

    Incredible information all, and thank you taking the time to list and share all this.

    I hadn't realised so few 15's and 17's were sold here. I suppose France was in the middle of that Atomic Bomb race around the late 70's 80's Can't imagine that would have helped them sell here at the time.

    And given the 5sp boxes are so few and in between now.. I best find me that different clutch cover / bell housing from a 17TL, 15TS to fit the 807 in my shed, and 4sp in the 12 whilst I still can.

    And some of you have taken the front brakes from a 12, and fitted them on the rear? That sounds like a nice way of dealing with the parts available. Providing I can find some vented 17 discs.. I'll need the entire hub / won't I? I can't quite understand how the front 12 bits bolted on the gutted rear hub but I'll google that later..

    But given all this; as far as my 12 is concerned, It seems I should keep an eye out for any 15/17 I find for there will be enough bits to make it a little of the way
    Shoji likes this.

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Yarrabilba, Queensland
    Posts
    2,755

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Incredible information all, and thank you taking the time to list and share all this.

    I hadn't realised so few 15's and 17's were sold here. I suppose France was in the middle of that Atomic Bomb race around the late 70's 80's Can't imagine that would have helped them sell here at the time.

    And given the 5sp boxes are so few and in between now.. I best find me that different clutch cover / bell housing from a 17TL, 15TS to fit the 807 in my shed, and 4sp in the 12 whilst I still can.

    And some of you have taken the front brakes from a 12, and fitted them on the rear? That sounds like a nice way of dealing with the parts available. Providing I can find some vented 17 discs.. I'll need the entire hub / won't I? I can't quite understand how the front 12 bits bolted on the gutted rear hub but I'll google that later..

    But given all this; as far as my 12 is concerned, It seems I should keep an eye out for any 15/17 I find for there will be enough bits to make it a little of the way
    Best you don't go with the R12 gearbox if you have an R15/17 4 speed laying around.
    The diff ratio for the R12 is higher than ther R15/17 one and gives about [email protected]/h where as the R15/17 4 speed has a diff ratio that will give [email protected]/h or there abouts.
    I remember this because I got a s/h box from a wrecker in Brisbane for my R17TL at one stage and the acceleration was great but top end suffered a little. I know 400 odd revs at hughway speed isn't much but it is way more pleasant to drive at the lower engine speed.
    One other thing I must say is, while the driveshafts are interchangable, the R12 ones as I remember had a 3 ball inner end and the R15/17 ones had a 4 ball inner joint. The R17 ones just looked stronger to me.
    2016 Renault Sport Clio Cup EDC 200



    Previous

    2001 Rx-4 Privilege
    R17TL, 1973
    R20TS x 3
    R18 GTS wagon x 2
    R10





    "When you hit the tree between the headlights thats understeer. Oversteer is when you hit the tree between the Tail Lights" - Wayne Bell

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Concord City, Sir.
    Posts
    3,376

    Default

    Ah good to know also!

    Works: 2003 YV Commodore (That is Cecil to you)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car and Sunny the R12 Lego set.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16, Choo Choo'd Volvo S40
    Wanted Will hoard 12/15/17 Junk.

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,525

    Default

    The original 17 drive shafts not only had a 4 ball drive but were also thicker. But they no longer exist. Well none that I can find. So save any good drive shafts even R12 ones because although available overseas it is hard to choose which as they offer a range and I am never sure of the right ones. Plus postage would be a bomb. Also if a shaft starts to get noisy on the outer joint you can change them from one side to the other. You still get a bit of backlash when you go from first to reverse but it prolongs their life. If you don't know the state of a shaft slip the boot back and have a look for wear. It is quite obvious and that will also tell you which side the shaft would be best on.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •