Increasing the cc - C1J - CHT Brazil
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Thread: Increasing the cc - C1J - CHT Brazil

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    Default Increasing the cc - C1J - CHT Brazil

    Hello, my name is Vagner and I live here in Brazil, I have a car VW here called "Gol" which has a engine name CHT. Its engineering is close to or equal to C1J engines if I'm not mistaken, that equips Gordini, Alpine and up to R5, correct me if I'm wrong ... I'll post some pictures to give you an idea if I'm talking right.

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    I found the Forum by Google looking for ideas and suggestions on how to increase the cc and just seeing here a topic but it was too old to increase in diameter Liner to use larger pistons. Over here the maximum engine capacity to 1600cc it is in real 1555cc, piston 77mm and stroke of 83.5. That my search ended up finding a conversion kit from 1600 to 1800 Alpine where the seller who lives in England and even gave me a few tips but I came here to get more referrals.

    I'm doing a refined preparation it with the following items:
    - Camshaft 276
    - Programmable Electronic Injection FuelTech
    - Rods valves solid and thicker
    - Bronze bushings in place of springs heads cilinder (not sure how they call in English which drive the valves in the cylinder head)
    - Exhaust manifold 4x1
    - Iridium Sparks plugs
    - Blueprint in the head with 3 angles in equalization valves and ducts
    - Plenum with TBI 70mm and pipelines curved for better airflow
    - Double sports Filter Flow
    - ** I have project to deploy "angle Sensor Crankshaft" and elimination of Distributor

    This is a preview






    This engine here very suffer discrimination by be rated as bad engine, cultural thing but come on ... how I'm trying to extract the maximum that this engine can offer was focusing on increasing cc. As I said today it uses 77mm pistons and original Liners not stand for larger diameter opening, then looked for a company here that make Liners forged giving more strength and making up for the decrease in the thickness of material.

    The first step to think of increase of cc at this point is that initially need to open the block, which has 4mm between Liners and to be able to evolve to 81mm it would have a considerable gain in 180cc and I thought these dimensions, confer it surpassed the limit of the measures if others weaken or is in the tolerable limit.








    original kit left and conversion kit forged on the right, you can see that has a difference in thickness.




    The post was a bit extensive but it was to show you my question and as you have more experience and explore more of this type of engine could help me. Some terms in English I do not know and the translator also not helped +).

    Say what you think feasible to do limit the increase, noting that will be forjed Liners


    Thanks for listening
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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Wagner,

    You have surprised me with this engine. I was aware that VW used it but did not know that it was 1555cc. I know of 1397 and have worked with them. Dacia had a 1600? cc engine that was used in South Africa to build 1600 Gordini engines. It worked but the crankshaft broke when the revs went often above 6000rpm. The guys there thought it was due to the Romanian steel quality. I can not help with what you want to do but can only tell of things that happened to me.

    I built a 1480 race engine by using 78mm Mazda pistons. At one stage a sleeve cracked and let the water in. It can be a bad sleeve because after replacing it, it did many racing miles. I have built a few engines for Gordini (crossflow Head) using Fiat pistons. I then used Renault sleeves 76mm and had them bored out to 77mm and 77.8mm. That has been succesfull with a standard 76mm gasket that is available to us.

    Your increase in cc will be interesting although I think you will have to do something major to keep the compression ratio to reasonable levels. Sleeves that are to thin can distort and go out of round if torqued to specifications. That causes blow by and smoking engine.

    I know that you can make a 1800cc 807 motor by using a kit from Salv Sacco in England but I have never heard of a C1J engine that big.

    It will be nice if you keep us informed and tell about the road to a 1800 Sierra engine.

    Regards. Frans
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Hello Wagner and welcome to Aussiefrogs.

    That is very interesting. Frans knows more about these engines than most people, so you have been lucky with the first reply.

    I do not have enough knowledge to help you myself, but you are in the right place to find the right people!

    Best wishes
    JohnW

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    Just some differences I have noticed between your motor and my R10 and R12 motors:

    The cylinder head and engine block are different castings.
    The oil pressure sender unit is in a different place.
    The water pump is completely different to R8, R10 AND R12.
    The distributor is different
    There is no engine number above the oil filter, usually on a riveted-on aluminium plate.
    The valve cover and timing chain covers are obviously different pressings.

    Despite the above, I would still expect that some of the components are interchangeable.

    Henry
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    Hi Vagner,
    I believe what Frans says about the motor, we are from Southern Africa, and we had very dedicated Renault parts there, and the strongest motors that lasted were the 1475cc units with Mazda or Datsun pistons. I had seen a 1750 unit in the UK with a R5 1400 block and a Dacia crank, not sure of the piston size. But the motor was unreliable when driven hard. Its limit was about 6000RPM, and there was a lot of work done to balance it very accurately.

    I do like your inlet manifold,

    Megajolt and Rev Counter !!!

    Will give an idea how I have mounted a trigger wheel and sensor on a Gordini crank pulley. The Gordini pulley seems to be about 6mm further away from the timing cover, so there is room for the trigger wheel to rotate.

    As "Rubyalpine" says the block is a very simple casting, I would say particular only to Brasil and surerounds, as "Ruby..." says the detail that Renault have in their castings is not in this block. I would say the basic shape was taken from an R8 or something of that era.

    Keep us informed of your progress.
    Thanks,
    Ray
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    Ray geckoeng

    Think Old, But Run Modern !!

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    Hi Vagner!

    There is this french guy offering all sorts of crazy things for the Sierra/Cleon egine. His biggest pistons seems to be 81mm and together with 86mm stroke(modified R5 Turbo crank?) that makes 1771cc. This is not a straigt fit however.

    https://translate.google.no/translat...tml&edit-text=

    But theese are expensive parts made on order and the modifications to the block are quite extensive. As far as I know the normal rebore pistons for the CHT is as big as 78mm. Why not start from there?

    Actually I have a 83,5mm CHT crank on the shelf myself. A few brasilian Ford Escorts were sold in Norway in the eighties. I plan to put this in a Sierra engine(R5 Alpine) one day but I havent found suitable pistons for it yet. I hesitate to use big money on this project as I dont know much of the quality of the CHT crank. Will it stand high rpms or break above 6000rpms like the Dacia ones?
    Like Geckoeng I must say I love your inlet manifold.
    Last edited by Reidar; 1st February 2016 at 10:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reidar View Post
    Hi Vagner!

    There is this french guy offering all sorts of crazy things for the Sierra/Cleon egine. His biggest pistons seems to be 81mm and together with 86mm stroke(modified R5 Turbo crank?) that makes 1771cc. This is not a straigt fit however.

    https://translate.google.no/translat...tml&edit-text=

    But theese are expensive parts made on order and the modifications to the block are quite extensive. As far as I know the normal rebore pistons for the CHT is as big as 78mm. Why not start from there?

    Actually I have a 83,5mm CHT crank on the shelf myself. A few brasilian Ford Escorts were sold in Norway in the eighties. I plan to put this in a Sierra engine(R5 Alpine) one day but I havent found suitable pistons for it yet. I hesitate to use big money on this project as I dont know much of the quality of the CHT crank. Will it stand high rpms or break above 6000rpms like the Dacia ones?
    Like Geckoeng I must say I love your inlet manifold.
    Thats a great website, I like that he shares the drawings of the parts that he makes.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Great website - thanks for the link.
    JohnW

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    I started a thread on the CHT engine on the Renault Classic Car Club Forum nearly three years ago. Some interresting things came up althought none had first hand experience with the exact type of engine:

    Escort LX engine(1550cc stroked Renault engine) | Renault Classic Car Club Forum

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    Thanks guys for a very interesting thread. Pity I am not playing with these engines any more. If I was younger I might have wanted to chase up this stuff even further.

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    Thank you Frans, this engine in Brazil was sold as 1600cc but as was said in the real 1555cc, piston and 77mm stroke 83,5mm, what do this have helped gain cc. This type of engine has come out in some cars here as the VW "Goal" and the Ford Escort Mk1 among others ... This in the end of the 70s, 80s and mid-90s became popular with the use of ethanol (made from sugar cane) as fuel, for there must not be used for colder temperature, on the coldest days the engine has a Gasoline Injector to facilitate ignition.


    These experiences he had with the cc increase projects are interesting. About kit 1800cc was with Salv even though I've been exchanging emails, gave me some technical drawings of some Liners and from what I saw one of 80mm would work, I would like to move towards 81mm to obtain a considerable difference in the cc. He gave me some tips and said that the set of 1800cc is too big for my engine, and must be installed on aluminum block and not iron as mine, the engine for what he said was 807 or something ... I'm correct?

    This detail in relation to the torque did not think it could be a problem, I will analyze. As the compression ratio, I think it would reduce by little because Gasket would be affected to a greater 4mm in diameter. Bought one of 1,22mm steel, I'll see if I can change it or having to buy another, as has the piston diameter 77mm, it is to obtain assurance that increase in cc project.





    I thank the attention and we talking here and seeing experiences and knowledge of everyone here can be viable this type of project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Hello Wagner and welcome to Aussiefrogs.

    That is very interesting. Frans knows more about these engines than most people, so you have been lucky with the first reply.

    I do not have enough knowledge to help you myself, but you are in the right place to find the right people!

    Best wishes

    Thank you John, i hope to find here the certainty about the project, not to have future problems because here the cost of high-performance parts and preparation are relatively high, so I want to get an ideal dimension for safety in the project and check that compensates for the cost and job. Whether this will work or will not updating here with progress to further enhance the content for this type of engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rubyalpine View Post
    Just some differences I have noticed between your motor and my R10 and R12 motors:

    The cylinder head and engine block are different castings.
    The oil pressure sender unit is in a different place.
    The water pump is completely different to R8, R10 AND R12.
    The distributor is different
    There is no engine number above the oil filter, usually on a riveted-on aluminium plate.
    The valve cover and timing chain covers are obviously different pressings.

    Despite the above, I would still expect that some of the components are interchangeable.

    Henry
    Hi, In my research the engine looks more like C1j.
    the cilinder head is non - crossflow and made of aluminum, the block of iron cast
    The water pump just saw here even this model
    Some pieces for the technical scheme that can compare are identical and can probably be used, I would like a crossflow cilinder head but the cost to send here would highy, you know what it would cost one of these around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    Hi Vagner,
    I believe what Frans says about the motor, we are from Southern Africa, and we had very dedicated Renault parts there, and the strongest motors that lasted were the 1475cc units with Mazda or Datsun pistons. I had seen a 1750 unit in the UK with a R5 1400 block and a Dacia crank, not sure of the piston size. But the motor was unreliable when driven hard. Its limit was about 6000RPM, and there was a lot of work done to balance it very accurately.

    I do like your inlet manifold,

    Megajolt and Rev Counter !!!

    Will give an idea how I have mounted a trigger wheel and sensor on a Gordini crank pulley. The Gordini pulley seems to be about 6mm further away from the timing cover, so there is room for the trigger wheel to rotate.

    As "Rubyalpine" says the block is a very simple casting, I would say particular only to Brasil and surerounds, as "Ruby..." says the detail that Renault have in their castings is not in this block. I would say the basic shape was taken from an R8 or something of that era.

    Keep us informed of your progress.
    Thanks,
    Ray
    Hello Ray, appreciate the attention, here the changes you make to have a higher rpm to 6000 are: Rods solid and thicker, placing bronze bushings in place of the springs between the valves trigger on cilinder head (i dont know the name in English that part), I will provide it to secure this added strength.

    The inlet manifold is the special part of EI, the guy who produced made a great job in this part, as with pipelines in diameter of the gasket, so only equalize the Cylinder head duct for optimum flow between these components.

    the topic on the wheel trigger clarify a bit my idea... was basically what do I was wondering, the EI module uses standard gear 60-2, I thought of weld it or screws to be able to be more mobile if you need a change the focal point.

    The question would be the distributor ... could "cut" literally my distributor to take advantage of the base, at the top of welding to seal?

    The block is made of cast iron, changing the thickness of 4mm to 1,5mm will be would weaken too much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reidar View Post
    Hi Vagner!

    There is this french guy offering all sorts of crazy things for the Sierra/Cleon egine. His biggest pistons seems to be 81mm and together with 86mm stroke(modified R5 Turbo crank?) that makes 1771cc. This is not a straigt fit however.

    https://translate.google.no/translat...tml&edit-text=

    But theese are expensive parts made on order and the modifications to the block are quite extensive. As far as I know the normal rebore pistons for the CHT is as big as 78mm. Why not start from there?

    Actually I have a 83,5mm CHT crank on the shelf myself. A few brasilian Ford Escorts were sold in Norway in the eighties. I plan to put this in a Sierra engine(R5 Alpine) one day but I havent found suitable pistons for it yet. I hesitate to use big money on this project as I dont know much of the quality of the CHT crank. Will it stand high rpms or break above 6000rpms like the Dacia ones?
    Like Geckoeng I must say I love your inlet manifold.

    I'll have to talk to this guy crazy for more details kkkkk.

    But from what I saw the ads are old and to Crossflow cilinder head, for me the cost would be too high based on the purchase of products in Euros as the price of local currency for my is 4x more. Producing around here would be better but I need to have technical details of the possibilities, I think for my kind of block would be the maximum piston 81mm with 1.5 thickness on the block, Liners thickness at the bottom 1.5MM and top 2mm (in flat area)


    THe Inlet Manifold is SPECIAL! =)))






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    Quote Originally Posted by Reidar View Post
    I started a thread on the CHT engine on the Renault Classic Car Club Forum nearly three years ago. Some interresting things came up althought none had first hand experience with the exact type of engine:

    Escort LX engine(1550cc stroked Renault engine) | Renault Classic Car Club Forum

    The car in the picture is the same as mine.

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    This is my Module of EI



    Some photos of my components












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    Before and after....

    Starter




    Water Pump




    Block




    Cilinder Head *** this will not be used because it changed with one that had bigger valves




    My car - VW Gol CL - Year 91

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    The aluminium engine 807 type.

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    Sunroof,
    The second 807 type motor you show, with the fuel injection. What is that from?? and what is the motor type code ????

    Ray
    Ray geckoeng

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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    Sunroof,
    The second 807 type motor you show, with the fuel injection. What is that from?? and what is the motor type code ????

    Ray
    844-12 injection from either an R17TS or R17Gordini. They are both the same engines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post




    The aluminium engine 807 type.
    Hi Sunroof

    Is that a R18 flywheel in the bottom pic?
    Regards Col

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    The later R17 Gordinis had a diagnostic socket fitted. A TDC sensor was used on the fly wheel timing wheel. There was also transistorised ignition. This is a photo of a French friends motor. I have 3 X 844-12 motors. One in my R17TS, one in an R12G replica, and one waiting for the restoration of my R17 Gordini with a factory sunroof.

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    Looks like your project is coming together nicely Vagner!

    I dont know how much experience you have but its easy to aim to high. CC vice you are allready close to what is achieveable without spending big money. You might try boring out to 78mm witch is the biggest normal overbore avaliable for the standard CHT liners. I dont know witch type of pistons you have but there is a big variety of 77-78mm pistons for the CHT1600, some might be better suited for powergain than others.

    Iīm looking for a special hi compression piston called P1270(Metal Leve) for my CHT/R5 Alpine engine that might suit your project also. You find more info in my Renault proboards thread. I have found them quite cheap in Brasilian webshops but they are unfortunately not avaliable in Europe.

    I havent been in touch with anyone with first hand experience with tuning of the CHT engine before. Is it considered a reliable engine suited for power gain(150 bhp or so)? Will it stand high rpm well?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Reidar View Post
    Looks like your project is coming together nicely Vagner!

    I dont know how much experience you have but its easy to aim to high. CC vice you are allready close to what is achieveable without spending big money. You might try boring out to 78mm witch is the biggest normal overbore avaliable for the standard CHT liners. I dont know witch type of pistons you have but there is a big variety of 77-78mm pistons for the CHT1600, some might be better suited for powergain than others.

    Iīm looking for a special hi compression piston called P1270(Metal Leve) for my CHT/R5 Alpine engine that might suit your project also. You find more info in my Renault proboards thread. I have found them quite cheap in Brasilian webshops but they are unfortunately not avaliable in Europe.

    I havent been in touch with anyone with first hand experience with tuning of the CHT engine before. Is it considered a reliable engine suited for power gain(150 bhp or so)? Will it stand high rpm well?

    Hi Reidar, around here just finds pistons with a maximum of 77mm in diameter for use in CHT. Probably the set I have here is what you're in need, his cilindir head is non-crossflow right? The Euro is 4x greater than the quote currency here, so with about 120 Euros you buy a new Set Metal Leve, 77mm piston, liners, rings and pins. If you need can help you, check out photos.








    So... this preparation I'm doing in the car will not exploit it to the fullest as it says in CV because it will use camshaft 276 ... can use a higher among some other changes, it is that I will let for street use and not competition would then difficult for this type of use ... but I will try to adapt several features to let with great performance and good performance ... as programmable IE, rotation sensor Crankshaft among others.

    I will try to pass the 75CVs original to approximately 120-130CV

    Sav Sacco in England told me that has an engine with 12.5: 1 compression ratio, 320 camshaft, 171BHP from 1550cc and 8000rpm, engineering is identical to the CHT, of course change some things but not much is so then the idea of ​​a reinforced Pushrods replace springs in Rocker by bronze bushings, that to endure high rotation + - 7000RPM, have cases here that with this engine remained stable at this level of rotation. For performance increase can follow the "recipe" of for a 4x1, ie, improved ignition, bluprint and among other factors will help you have a greater gain in the motor. Had a guy here made "jetFlow" on the block, you know? Made a hole in the support of the crankshaft driven piston down ... then the oil down to lubricate the crankshaft, ran at will the bearing and thought this new hole causing an oil jet is directed down the piston, thus helping to cool it, I have the video here Whatsaap only... if you have not understood I manage to send you.

    As they say, there are people doing miracles with this engine +)))

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