R10 dual circuit master cylinder
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    Default R10 dual circuit master cylinder

    Apart from the US model R10 master cylinder, has anyone used anything else or has advice/experience to offer re doing a conversion from single to double?

    cheers! Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Apart from the US model R10 master cylinder, has anyone used anything else or has advice/experience to offer re doing a conversion from single to double? cheers! Peter
    That's an interesting thought Peter.

    Sit back and wait for Frans or Alan, I'd suggest! If you fitted a servo in the boot where the R8 Gordini had it, there'd be working space around a dual master cylinder, presumably lots of options for it, and the standard one under the pedal could be left as is.

    Thanks for raising this... Could be interesting.
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    Have a look at what BrettR did on his restoration page; and Bustamif on his. Both have dual circuit brakes from memory.
    If I recall correctly, Brett uses a special master cylinder from a European A110 parts supplier, Bustamif's has one modified off another vehicle entirely.

    KB
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    There is also the VW master cylinder ManicGT used, T2 I think. It all depends on what bore diameter you want/need. I'm yet to think of a way to use an inline brake booster/tandem master cylinder, there just isn't any space without a complicated pedal linkage.

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    It depends whether you want the optimum or just an improvement.

    A dual circuit will be an improvement with some safety built in. Add a brake adjuster/limiter in there and you will be able to adjust between the front and rear. This is now more of an improvement and used by many racing drivers. This is good if you have variable road conditions. If you want the optimum (my worth) then you fit 2 master cylinders with a balancing bar. The advantage is that you keep all the pressure you have and distribute it between front and rear. An adjuster can only work if you REDUCE the pressure to the front or rear system and that is not the way I want to go. I want ALL the pressure I can get.

    I have the 2 master cylinders and balancing bar underneath the car in the same spot and nobody can tell. I could have the adjustment inside the car if I wanted to for varying conditions but I don't need it.

    Regards

    Frans
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    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    The two master cylinder and adjustable balance bar arrangement isn't street legal, in NSW anyway. I think the work around it to make it non adjustable once you get it all set up, you'll just have to find an engineer who is willing to do the testing, or just hope no one looks.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Some of the A110s had dual piston master cylinder that is available at some cost, ($400?) but does bolt in. I have used a BMW one, I think from a 2002. The only mod made was to the pushrod and make the mounting bolts 8mm instead of 6. I also fitted an in line brake pressure switch to operate the brake lights, and fitted new brake lines throughout the car. After trying 20.6mm and 22mm, I have stayed with the 22, even though pedal pressure is higher, I like the shorter travel. I have R10 brakes with this master cylinder fitted to the 4CV as part of the compliance with the big engine.
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    My thanks to all; I think that it is all beginning to jell. Some background which I should have given initially:

    The applications are 3: my Djet (early R16 fronts), the R8 & the 4CVG (both just standard R10 with rear balance valve removed in the former).

    Use is just brisk "C" road work.
    Driving style is that I hardly use the brakes (I just ease off).
    Motivation is that I would like some more braking than the handbrake provides if a seal fails or whatever. Extra-salient motivation is that this just happened in the R8 (fortunately in 1st in my drive).
    In each of the 3, the balance is fine for my purposes.
    As to bore size, I also favour the larger (22 mm) one for the reasons Alan gives. I, too, like a firm pedal & don't mind the extra pressure (& am not at all tempted by a booster - I drive a lot in the wet & threshold braking is sometimes used - easier without a booster).

    So, my current thinking, thanks to a PM tip from a member, is to buy a 22 mm one from Racing Car Diffusion via eBay & fit it to the Djet to see how I like it.

    Maitre Cylindre Alpine 22 Tandem A110 R8G Gros Freins | eBay

    cheers! Peter
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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Mecaparts has the 22mm tandem master cylinder for 310 Euro, so a bit cheaper than the one in your link. Part no. MP3303
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    I'm not sure anyone needs a dual master cylinder. From memory, an R8 or R10 had pretty much the shortest stopping distance around in the '60's with 4 wheel discs and a brake balance valve. Just the hand brake on an R8/10 would make a lot of cars brakes of the same period look sick too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    I'm not sure anyone needs a dual master cylinder. From memory, an R8 or R10 had pretty much the shortest stopping distance around in the '60's with 4 wheel discs and a brake balance valve. Just the hand brake on an R8/10 would make a lot of cars brakes of the same period look sick too.
    The dual master cylinder is not going to make the car stop any quicker, its use is to provide a safety backup if one of the hydraulic circuits fail, like what 4CVG has had happen as stated in post #8.
    Regards Col

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    My tandem system in the R10 Alconi referred to by Renault8&10 above has no booster. The pedal pressure and braking is exactly the same as my R8G with the single cylinder and no booster.

    The only advantage as stated by others is the additional safety that a tandem cylinder may provide. I would add however that if one seal fails in a tandem system the second seal system is usually in the same state and is unlikely to provide any really efficient back up. You are still likely to have the big crash.

    This occurred a few times at Bathurst in the old days (pre the chase when the straight was effectively longer) which is why dual master cylinder systems as described by Frans became the norm.

    The only reason I have the tandem system in the Alconi is that it was already fitted to the car so it was easier to rebuilt it and tidy up the installation than change to something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Motivation is that I would like some more braking than the handbrake provides if a seal fails or whatever. Extra-salient motivation is that this just happened in the R8 (fortunately in 1st in my drive).
    cheers! Peter
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    A couple of things:

    My motivation is indeed to have brakes still working at one end of the car if the circuit feeding the other end ruptures somewhere. Of course the braking power will be less, especially if the remaining circuit is the rear one, but some is better than none & may help provide the speed conditions for a successful dodging "jink".

    I take the point that, if age has wearied one bit, then the counterpart bit on the other circuit is probably wearied too. However, I consider it grossly unlikely that it will fail at just the same time as the first. Once I noticed diminished braking effect, I'd obviously not do another 10 fast, maximum braking laps of the circuit but, rather, limp home carefully in my public road driving circumstances. I predict with some confidence that the chances are high that I'd succeed in that without a second failure. One hassle with the R8 hand brake is that it slips out of adjustment regularly & frequently & loses some effectiveness &, in any case, applying it is an extra move during which one travels distance & involves a hand off the wheel.

    In my view, the case for the dual circuit remains clear & I shall contact Mecaparts (thanks Alan). No doubt tandem cylinders are better again for more demanding use but, as I said, I don't use brakes much & am content with the F/R balance of each of the three toys.

    Upon having the master cylinder stripped by my mechanic, what was wrong was a groove wom in the internal rubber cup seal. There didn't seem to be any projection on the bore that would cause that so ??? Perhaps a little bit of grit that became trapped? Looking at it, we were surprised that it was "no pedal, total brake loss" situation rather than mere diminution.

    cheers! Peter

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    In all the talk about installing the dual master cylinder there has not been any mention of the safety valve that Renault installed with the dual master as part of the up grades ! How important is that feature when doing the upgrade to the dual master ?
    R10 dual circuit master cylinder-r8-master-car-safety-valve.jpg Manic gt

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    Quote Originally Posted by manicgt View Post
    In all the talk about installing the dual master cylinder there has not been any mention of the safety valve that Renault installed with the dual master as part of the up grades ! How important is that feature when doing the upgrade to the dual master ?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	R8 master on car with safety valve.jpg 
Views:	381 
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ID:	77034 Manic gt
    Reasonably important. It contains a shuttle valve which moves along to make an electrical connection illuminating the warning light on the dashboard, depending on a pressure difference between the two circuits. If there is a pressure difference, it is an indication of a leak, or fault, in one of the circuits. If there is no pressure difference, the shuttle valve is neutral and doesn't move, and the warning light doesn't illuminate.

    Love the pic of the ex-salty road car! :-)
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    Peter,

    They may till be the cheaper option, but don't forget to look at freight as part of the overall cost. Mecaparts can be bandits on postage (although both postage and courier in France/Europe I've found to be expensive). for example a year or two back I bought Euro75 worth of parts with Euro 70 postage. Unfortunately I needed them urgently so there was no choice.

    It might not hurt to explore both options and look at the total cost.
    KB


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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Upon having the master cylinder stripped by my mechanic, what was wrong was a groove wom in the internal rubber cup seal. There didn't seem to be any projection on the bore that would cause that so ??? Perhaps a little bit of grit that became trapped? Looking at it, we were surprised that it was "no pedal, total brake loss" situation rather than mere diminution. cheers! Peter
    That is a nasty one Peter. I've never had a failure like that. I'll be fascinated to see how this evolves.
    JohnW

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    I've been advised to also go to a dual circuit system but as I'm increasing the power considerably the engineer doesn't think the 6mm discs are big enough in terms of brake fade.

    I was told the easiest way to get it passed was to use the brakes of another rear engined car, not that many of them, mr2 spyder is the winner, so I'll be going with a 22mm master cylinder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    I've been advised to also go to a dual circuit system but as I'm increasing the power considerably the engineer doesn't think the 6mm discs are big enough in terms of brake fade.

    I was told the easiest way to get it passed was to use the brakes of another rear engined car, not that many of them, mr2 spyder is the winner, so I'll be going with a 22mm master cylinder.
    Considerably more power, but the weight is still low, and about half of the MR2. The R8/10 brakes of the era were much better than what was around in that time. On the track I have had no problems with fade on my 16TS powered R8 or 4CV (R10 Brakes), unlike my hot 15TS that would only do 2 laps of Lakeside without fade.

    Mecaparts have the R8G discs, 261mm x 8mm (apparently improved) for 108 Euro a pair.
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    True, I can suggest to the engineer that they will probably be sufficient as I'm not increasing the weight that much. The MR2 is about 30% heavier.

    That's enough thread hijacking for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    Mecaparts have the R8G discs, 261mm x 8mm (apparently improved) for 108 Euro a pair.
    FWIW, the Mecaparts 8mm discs just clicked over 20,000 miles on my car on the weekend. Still in fine condition, so if they have been improved further they must be good! Just checked the price 200FF each in 10/1997.
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    True, I can suggest to the engineer that they will probably be sufficient as I'm not increasing the weight that much. The MR2 is about 30% heavier.

    That's enough thread hijacking for now.
    There's a long & generally appreciated tradition of thread hijacking on AF. A thread is an extended asynchronous conversation in print &, like most most conversations, segues from one line of thinking to another connected one & then back again perhaps (or perhaps not).

    Still, as you insist on returning to the original point, I have another pebble to put on the pile.

    Of the three toys of mine that are under consideration here, the one that I am most moved to put on two circuits is not the R8 but the Djet. Not only in it the most valuable & difficult to replace of my toys, I am concerned about its master cylinder's condition having recently had the identical clutch master cylinder fail. I work the clutch more than I work the brake but even so . . . .

    In correspondence with a Club Djet tech guru who's fluent in English, I raised the issue of master cylinders. The Djet has R8 front suspension but back to front &, of course, put in the dimensional context of a different chassis/body. The upshot is that both the Mecaparts 22 mm A110 dual circuit cylinder & the U.S. 19 mm one are too long & foul on the front suspension.

    But, he advises, a Megane dual cylinder set up is short enough to fit & works nicely. The only glitch is that the mounting holes are spaced differently & thus an adaptor has to be crafted.

    So that is the path I'll investigate with the Djet. Although Mecaparts only lists the one Alan mentions in the A110 section of the catalogue &, on the face of it, it's not listed as suitable for the R8 family ( they usually cross list what will work elsewhere, so perhaps too long?). So, I'll clarify that with them. Anyway, presumably one could do the Megane option on the R8 family as well.

    cheers! Peter
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    I thought you couldn't use a master cylinder of an in line booster without an in line booster? I could be wrong here. I should check to see what is on the Clio before I send the carcass to scrap.

    Do the 8mm R8G discs use a different caliper to the standard 6.5mm disc? Or is there enough space? I really should dismantle my calipers and check them before jumping any particular direction.

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    COL
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    Peter

    You could save yourself a lot of grief here and just put new seals in the master cylinder every 3 years or so, and that way you will know that the seals are in good condition.

    The seal failure that you had, how old is the seal in question?

    I have only had one brake failure and that was a front flexible hose, the car was stationary and i was pushing on the brake pedal very hard, harder than would be required to lock the brakes so the pressure in the brake system would of been very high. The hoses would of been 20 years old so I immediately replaced all the flexible hoses.

    There is a fair bit of work to change from a single to a dual master cylinder. Just putting the idea out there.
    Regards Col

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