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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Sometimes you wonder if offering to help...

    A fellow I know with an R16TS asked me to go help with the flushing of his cooling system. Earlier this week I gave him a load of spares, now it seems I am his "go to man".
    So off I drove, about 45 minutes each way and he had already drained. OK now to do a flushing fill, however after a LONG time looking I could find no bleed screws at all. No heater one, hmm, no carb one, that's not too unusual and one on the pump.
    So, through all the "normal" stuff, but how to bleed the heater circuit? I did not come up with an answer, so any ideas would be very welcome. And yes I think I was looking in the right place, however, no sign even of the hole in the firewall where I would normally find the bleed hose.
    Nice car potential BTW

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  2. #2
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    It sounds like some conversions have taken place. I would take the wipers off and undo the panel below the windscreen and have a look to see if the heater is there and connected.

    cheers
    Geoff

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Stewart View Post
    It sounds like some conversions have taken place. I would take the wipers off and undo the panel below the windscreen and have a look to see if the heater is there and connected.

    cheers
    Geoff
    Good idea as it is only two (TACL?) screws. It's been such a long time since I redid coolant on a 16TS. I dimly think I recall one brass nipple with a 10 mm or 12 mm hexagon, near the carbie or on the water pump? Look for a screw or bolt that might have been used instead of the original fitting maybe.

    Someone who really knows will no doubt come in soon.....

    Lovely spot, Kerikeri.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Failing everything else, get a bleeder piece off a R12 system (it's just a piece of pipe with a bleed screw on the side) and cut the top heater hose at its highest point near the firewall and insert that in the system.

    See in the picture below, top right:

    http://images.forum-auto.com/mesimag...plet.jpg2..jpg
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Various instructions and pics from the handbook, parts catalogue and workshop manual. Note the differences for LHD and RHD.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sometimes you wonder if offering to help...-dsc07405.jpg   Sometimes you wonder if offering to help...-dsc07400.jpg   Sometimes you wonder if offering to help...-dsc07401.jpg   Sometimes you wonder if offering to help...-dsc07403.jpg   Sometimes you wonder if offering to help...-dsc07402.jpg  
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    hi kiwia110,
    there should be a bleeder hose/brass thumbscrew on the left hand inner guard area close to the firewall,between air filter and inner guard,plus the one at the water pump.you probably already realise you will have to have heater tap open (set on hot) and the filling point above height of bleeder at firewall.this may be achieved by loosening expansion bottle mount and bringing the bottle up above height of bleeder and topping up through bottle until all air is depleted from bleeders,or as I had in my workshop was an extension tube welded onto an old radiator filler cap (hole drilled through centre) with a funnel on top to top up through.hope I haven,t confused you too much,good luck. jim

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    Thanks all, however I knew all of the above. Nothing new to me there at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110 View Post
    Thanks all, however I knew all of the above. Nothing new to me there at all.
    Sure this isn't a joke? Sometimes you have to wonder.......

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110 View Post
    So, through all the "normal" stuff, but how to bleed the heater circuit? I did not come up with an answer, so any ideas would be very welcome. And yes I think I was looking in the right place, however, no sign even of the hole in the firewall where I would normally find the bleed hose.
    From this it doesn't sound like it is. The pics were posted up so you could identify where any missing bits or botch/lash-ups or missing/misplaced components are so you can get it back to scratch. Bleed screws don't just go missing - they actually have to be snapped off (the carby) or have some other form of human intervention for them to go missing. Without knowing what has been done means there is little chance of bleeding it properly, and there is even less chance of someone on this side of the screen being able to assist to bleed it properly as not all botch-ups are the same.
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  9. #9
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    No Simon, I did thank you all, and as you have said possibly/probably someone has been in there. My manuals (several types) say that the carb bleed one is not always there. The one on the pump is, but no sign of the heater one. Next option as suggested by Geoff is to go in and check the heater itself. If it has been removed or messed with bleeding that circuit may be fun. The hoses still go through the firewall. The owner does have a spare heater, so perhaps that is my next task to fit. Just love the driving to get there, not. Schlitz's suggestion would be great, if you could find any 12 spares in this country, at all anymore.
    Sincerely I do thank you all.

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    Further thinking. If the owner asked to flush the system does that mean that the system was working? You could run the car turn the heater control on and fan and see if heat comes out. That might mean that the heater is attached and working. Still doesn't answer where the bleed screw went though. If it doesn't produce heat then time to get in there and have a look. If you use a long enough pipe on the top of the radiator then you might even get away with not having to use the heater bleed screw when you go to bleed the system.

    cheers.

    p.s I did initially feel like Simon did in your previous response but I think we put that down to the inexact communication of web forums.

  11. #11
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    Good thought Geoff, the heater control (temp) seems to be operational, but the fan and direction controls are seized, so a little hard to be sure. Later today I found my cap with hose fitting attached so that will help.
    Unfortunately I don't know whether the system was working properly prior to my visit.
    He had already drained (?) the system but said there was little sign of liquid!! Nothing came out when he removed the drain plug, and then some when he took the cap off. The last bit in his words.
    For his sake I hope he, or his wife, have not done any damage as they have lusted after another 16 for some time, having owned a few in the past. He really has no mechanical aptitude, but a fantastic wooden, old school boatbuilder.

    Sincere apologies for my abrupt response previously.

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    That is not really the news you wish for when dealing with a 16 as you suggest. No coolant is a recipe for disaster. Explains why he needs help. Did you check under the oil cap to see if there is any sludge suggestive of head gasket gone. Is he ready for a new water pump? Probably need to check the welsh plugs as well. Anyway that's all black hat thinking! I'd say all you can do is fill it up and keep the water pouring into your funnel at the end of your tube and start her and see what happens. The cables for the fan are a separate issue and are a real pain to free up. Under the levers for the fans is also probably a small sheet of asbestos so be ready for that. Sometimes you can lever up the front vent below the windscreen on the outside of the car and in front of the driver, that can free up one of the cables. It sounds like hours of fun to be had. Good luck.

  13. #13
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    No sludge, TG!
    I and he both have plenty of water pumps and gaskets.
    I am leaving him with the cables and such like and only going back if he screams for help. He has very specific instructions to find things before I return.

  14. #14
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    On the R17 TS I had repeated over heating problems despite the usual bleeding etc. Eventually found that there was a blockage in the two heater pipes where they changed from rubber to steel at the fire wall. Once this was cleared I have never ever seen the gauge get any where past normal no matter whether it is bumper to bumper traffic or on the track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    On the R17 TS I had repeated over heating problems despite the usual bleeding etc. Eventually found that there was a blockage in the two heater pipes where they changed from rubber to steel at the fire wall. Once this was cleared I have never ever seen the gauge get any where past normal no matter whether it is bumper to bumper traffic or on the track.
    Why? That suggests the heater circulation is key to adequate cooling. Seems odd. Could clearing the blockage also have ensured some key air removal do you think?

    Funny things, some cooling systems.

    My R8 gauge has suddenly jumped ten degrees and I think it is just more volts from the new alternator.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    I think perhaps there was still air in the heater which as the pressure increased it compressed rather than let the pressure build which increases the boiling point. As the heater tap is rarely on in Qld I don't think it has any thing to do with the extra water in the heater system adding to the cooling capacity. Perhaps the air in the heater also prevented the total amount of fluid entering the rest of the system. I don't know it is really only conjecture.


  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I think perhaps there was still air in the heater which as the pressure increased it compressed rather than let the pressure build which increases the boiling point. As the heater tap is rarely on in Qld I don't think it has any thing to do with the extra water in the heater system adding to the cooling capacity. Perhaps the air in the heater also prevented the total amount of fluid entering the rest of the system. I don't know it is really only conjecture.
    Very curious. The pressure wouldn't matter if it didn't approach 100 degrees, so you'd have to suspect coolant flow. Air right at the pump? We may never know.....

    Clearly the photo reflects the previous owner's approach to coolant?
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110 View Post
    Good thought Geoff, the heater control (temp) seems to be operational, but the fan and direction controls are seized, so a little hard to be sure.
    BEWARE!!!

    Although you're likely aware I'd just like to remind anyone working in the heater control area, the fan control is comprised of a piece of ASBESTOS wrapped in wire for resistance.

    Simon could probably tell me if this is just earlier R16s, but I haven't been as careful as I should have been over the years, wrecking many 16s.
    Powered by high grade French plutonium.

  19. #19
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    But wait there is more.
    On the top surface of the water pump is a fitting like a hose tail This is not the one for the heater, and not the one for the carb heater circuit. It seems as though it goes in to the pump body, and has no closure of any kind. When you run the car nothing comes out nor does it suck air. All his spare pumps have the same fitting.
    Clues please.
    Thanks

  20. #20
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110 View Post
    But wait there is more.
    On the top surface of the water pump is a fitting like a hose tail This is not the one for the heater, and not the one for the carb heater circuit. It seems as though it goes in to the pump body, and has no closure of any kind. When you run the car nothing comes out nor does it suck air. All his spare pumps have the same fitting.
    Clues please.
    Thanks
    I recall our 16TS had one, maybe two, blank spigots, one of which had a rubber boot and a hose clip. I guessed there were several variants of the pump over time with the basic casting ending up with odd bits from the past, a bit like our appendix.

    Hope you like Kerikeri....
    JohnW

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I recall our 16TS had one, maybe two, blank spigots, one of which had a rubber boot and a hose clip. I guessed there were several variants of the pump over time with the basic casting ending up with odd bits from the past, a bit like our appendix.

    Hope you like Kerikeri....
    Thanks, that may help.
    We are actually trying to sell our property here and migrate about 12000 miles

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110 View Post
    Thanks, that may help.
    We are actually trying to sell our property here and migrate about 12000 miles
    That'll make the trips to help in Kerikeri difficult.....

    Where are you off to?
    JohnW

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  23. #23
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    I can't say for sure, but it's likely to be a very cold winter there very soon!

  24. #24
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    Yep.

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