Do I need to remove the gearbox
  • Help
Results 1 to 20 of 20
Like Tree7Likes
  • 1 Post By 59 Floride
  • 1 Post By daffyduck
  • 2 Post By Simon
  • 1 Post By JohnW
  • 2 Post By DJ 750

Thread: Do I need to remove the gearbox

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    176

    Default Do I need to remove the gearbox

    Hi,

    My Renault 10 gearbox is leaking oil through the drivers side half shaft. Do I need to remove the gear box to replace the oil seal at the universal joint? Does removing the differential carrier to replace the seal mean that the crown wheel and pinion backlash is changed?

    Advertisement


    Thanks

    David

  2. #2
    Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    6,203

    Default

    I've never done it before, but there are really no reasons why it can't be done, as the 'box is supported by the top mount. Though I can see getting it back together again would likely be fiddly as things will move.

    If everything in the bearing carrier shells is the same (so the new seal is the same thickness as the old, the correct number of shims are in place, and the bearing track ring is properly pressed into place, there should not be too much variation. Whilst everything is apart though, and your hands are dirty, it may be worth doing the passenger side as well. As it will invariably start leaking in quick time if only one side is done.

    According to Renault documentation, it takes 2.3 hours to do one diff seal, and 4 hours to do both sides from go to woah.
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
    2002 Land Rover Defender Td5 130 - ex-CFA Region 4
    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup

  3. #3
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Others may comment but I agree with Simon that it should be fine. The shims behind the bearing cone sit on a ledge with the seal behind that, so the basal half of the trunnion supports does have to come out of the gearbox casing. I've done nearly all that job in the past.

    I'd allow more than 4 hours. Don't rush anything. The second side will be easier....

    Don't forget the gaskets behind the casting. There are special thin Renault ones, presumably of a particular thickness, so cutting one from gasket paper WOULD upset the crownwheel carrier bearing adjustment. Unless you are very lucky with the right thickness gasket paper.

    Best of luck with it.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  4. #4
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    It's how I roll...Brisbane
    Posts
    33,992

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Others may comment but I agree with Simon that it should be fine. The shims behind the bearing cone sit on a ledge with the seal behind that, so the basal half of the trunnion supports does have to come out of the gearbox casing. I've done nearly all that job in the past.

    I'd allow more than 4 hours. Don't rush anything. The second side will be easier....

    Don't forget the gaskets behind the casting. There are special thin Renault ones, presumably of a particular thickness, so cutting one from gasket paper WOULD upset the crownwheel carrier bearing adjustment. Unless you are very lucky with the right thickness gasket paper.

    Best of luck with it.
    The gaskets should be 0.18 - 0.2mm thick.
    addo likes this.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  5. #5
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Years ago in Adelaide, Jim Bush re-did the Type 330 gearbox I've been using for 35 years or so. I had it from an R8 I'd wrecked and it turned out to be a 10S gearbox, a late type. I recall he added "a thou or so" in shims to allow for a bit of wear that he judged would have taken place in the crownwheel carrier bearings.

    That gasket thickness is about 7-8 thou (0.18 - 0.2 mm). I'll have to measure up a new one - I'm sure I have one. I wonder what the current one on DJ750's car, squished, is? Maybe measure it when it is off the car, so the job doesn't accidentally loosen things up with something thicker?
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,639

    Default

    I have just done this on my Floride S, which has (incorrectly) a 330 gearbox fitted, and had no trouble. However I found that the axle, hub, and universal joint splines were all very worn on RH side and had to be replaced. I used NOS gaskets as well as a thin smear of gasket cement. Despite tightened the bolts to the specified torque (38 ftlbs I think) there is still a weep of oil there. What next?

  7. #7
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I have just done this on my Floride S, which has (incorrectly) a 330 gearbox fitted, and had no trouble. However I found that the axle, hub, and universal joint splines were all very worn on RH side and had to be replaced. I used NOS gaskets as well as a thin smear of gasket cement. Despite tightened the bolts to the specified torque (38 ftlbs I think) there is still a weep of oil there. What next?
    You'd have to say they are prone to the slightest weep there. Pain....

    I found my 4CV had the outer part of the housing actually worn, allowing the trunnion cap to move a tiny bit, amplified greatly at the wheel! Fixed with a new second hand outer.

    My R8 has the 330 (incorrectly) fitted too. Great improvement although no final ratio change.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    4 hours? Nothing on an antique French car takes book time any more. As mentioned, allow yourself plenty of extra.
    JohnW likes this.

  9. #9
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    4 hours? Nothing on an antique French car takes book time any more. As mentioned, allow yourself plenty of extra.
    Forgot to add, last time I had the swing axles off, I think I could do it with the suspension springs fully attached and the half shaft/brake assembly untouched. They could be moved just far enough at the inner end.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  10. #10
    Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    6,203

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    4 hours? Nothing on an antique French car takes book time any more. As mentioned, allow yourself plenty of extra.
    I just included the documented time to show that a) The actual specified task could be done, and b) That the task isn't a half-hour job. :-)

    It is a given that those side mounts are a lot more fiddly than Renault makes them out to be to fit, and that the full suite of Renault factory tools is unlikely to be available - so the task itself would likely take a touch longer. :-)
    daffyduck and JohnW like this.
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
    2002 Land Rover Defender Td5 130 - ex-CFA Region 4
    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup

  11. #11
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I just included the documented time to show that a) The actual specified task could be done, and b) That the task isn't a half-hour job. :-)

    It is a given that those side mounts are a lot more fiddly than Renault makes them out to be to fit, and that the full suite of Renault factory tools is unlikely to be available - so the task itself would likely take a touch longer. :-)
    I vaguely remember using over-length, fully-threaded bolts to pull the mountings into place, then replacing them one by one with the correct ones. Vaguely. It's fine if you don't rush, like most jobs.
    Sunroof likes this.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    176

    Default

    Hi,

    Thanks for the information. I will proceed slowly and definitely replace the oil seal on both sides.

    Regards

    David

  13. #13
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    It's a good time to check the universals too. There's a wee bolt holding them onto the splined shafts I think, perhaps with a rubber seal underneath, although my memory is vague as you hardly ever need to touch them. I'd fit new felt seals on the outer casting of the swing axle trunnion holders too.

    Then while it is apart.... No, stop there!

    Have fun. All worthwhile and therapeutic.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Geelong Australia
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Hi David . Long time since i,ve been in that area of the car but here is my 2 bob,s worth . once the gearbox side mount is out of the way ,it may , as previously stated , to pull the side bearing cage complete with axle tube out enough without undoing the shocker but in the interest of being thorough I would hang up the brake caliper , handbrake cable , limit strap , undo the top of the shocker and remove the offending side,s axle tube with axle . Usually the two halves of the trunnion housing / diff side bearing are glued together but in order to re-assemble in sequence and get a reliable seal ,I would prise them apart so they can be cleaned properly . I should have the paper gaskets that fit against the gearbox casing . I would suggest using a anaerobic setting loctite liquid gasket between the two faces of the trunnion casings and around the outer of the bearings for a good seal . Unless you know of play in your differential , do not alter shims on this job . good luck David

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,639

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I have just done this on my Floride S, which has (incorrectly) a 330 gearbox fitted, and had no trouble. However I found that the axle, hub, and universal joint splines were all very worn on RH side and had to be replaced. I used NOS gaskets as well as a thin smear of gasket cement. Despite tightened the bolts to the specified torque (38 ftlbs I think) there is still a weep of oil there. What next?
    Well well! The oil leak is coming from the bottom stud. Once oil was drained and all the mechanical bits were removed I discovered that oil was still dripping out, but not over the gearbox sill, but from the stud which was only finger tight. So I'll put it all back together with thread seal. Should I undo all the studs and reseal them. Guess so, better safe than sorry. The gasket although cut around the stud actually will not seal around it because there is a groove where the studs screw into the gearbox.

  16. #16
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Well well! The oil leak is coming from the bottom stud. Once oil was drained and all the mechanical bits were removed I discovered that oil was still dripping out, but not over the gearbox sill, but from the stud which was only finger tight. So I'll put it all back together with thread seal. Should I undo all the studs and reseal them. Guess so, better safe than sorry. The gasket although cut around the stud actually will not seal around it because there is a groove where the studs screw into the gearbox.
    For goodness' sake. Why didn't I think of that 35 years ago??? Many thanks.

    For "incorrectly" I suggest you substitute "very sensibly"! Our R1130 has the same modification and a huge improvement. Originality has sensible limits in my mind.

    Pity there isn't "Bars Leaks" for gearboxes.

    Best wishes,
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,639

    Default

    The original gearboxes (318?) had bolts in the crown wheel that came loose and then dropped into the bottom of the diff case and jammed under the crown wheel splitting the case. So apparently many R1130 and 1131 cars were retrofitted with 330 boxes. There was a service note that said if a gearbox was disassembled then the crown wheel bolts were to be tack welded to the crown wheel. My R1131 Caravelle had dropped a bolt and cracked the case near the drain plug. I glued the case up with Devcon and tack welded the heads of the bolts as suggested. The crack was at the drain plug and so I had to recut the tapered thread which is BSP 3/8 (I think that is the size). It is possible to buy a tapered tap for BSP threads.

  18. #18
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    The original gearboxes (318?) had bolts in the crown wheel that came loose and then dropped into the bottom of the diff case and jammed under the crown wheel splitting the case. So apparently many R1130 and 1131 cars were retrofitted with 330 boxes. There was a service note that said if a gearbox was disassembled then the crown wheel bolts were to be tack welded to the crown wheel. My R1131 Caravelle had dropped a bolt and cracked the case near the drain plug. I glued the case up with Devcon and tack welded the heads of the bolts as suggested. The crack was at the drain plug and so I had to recut the tapered thread which is BSP 3/8 (I think that is the size). It is possible to buy a tapered tap for BSP threads.
    And that explains why I once had a spare with the bolt heads brazed (bronze) to the crownwheel. I'd always wondered....

    My 318? box failed by breaking a tooth off second gear when being driven sensibly - actually the R8 has (almost) always been driven sensibly, which might just explain its survival....

    The later boxes were much better, not least first gear syncro of course...

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    176

    Default

    Hi,

    I have replaced the oil seal and reassembled, cleaned and painted everything on the major leaking side. The other side while not indicating a major leak, still had a bit of oil in the axle tube. I purchase the oil seals from SKF bearings in Moorabbin after a fruitless trip to Boxhill (this was the day that Ken was closed down). While the seals themselves were $6:00 each there was a $9:00 delivery fee from the warehouse. Nevertheless, still quicker and cheaper than overseas.

    Regards

    David
    Armidillo and JohnW like this.

  20. #20
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,310

    Default

    Gee, regarding Ken that was perfectly bad timing David!! Standard stuff from Bearing Service Company and all those sorts of places I guess.

    If yours ends up really drip free, please post a photograph. At worst it will be a huge improvement!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •