R8 tight handcrank... slow turnover with starter ...
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 37
Like Tree4Likes

Thread: R8 tight handcrank... slow turnover with starter ...

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default R8 tight handcrank... slow turnover with starter ...

    Hello All,
    I finally buttoned up my R8 enough to give it a go... I noticed it was very slow to turn over and drained the battery quite quickly. I also cranked it over by hand and found it to be very tight. There is also a dull rubbing sound as it turns. Not a metal on metal sound...but almost rubber on metal.

    My only thought is that perhaps the crank seal isn't seated correctly and rubbing against the flywheel?

    Advertisement


    I installed new seals all around.... had the valves redone and installed a new clutch. Hardly a majorly invasive surgery. Thoughts? Cheers, Ben

  2. #2
    Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    6,203

    Default

    Unlikely to be a crank seal, they wouldn't hold an engine tight regardless of how badly sized or incorrectly fitted they are. For peace of mind, it sounds like engine out time, then turn the sucker upside down on an engine stand. It could be a multitude of different things. Tight or incorrectly marked main/conrod bearings, tight or incorrectly marked pistons, tight piston rings with no gap.......etc etc....

    On the bright side, it could even be an easy fix like a tired starter or, poor earth, poor connection or tired battery, it depends on what you call tight when turning it over by hand :-)

    Things are going to have to be diagnosed by a process of elimination.
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
    2002 Land Rover Defender Td5 130 - ex-CFA Region 4
    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup

  3. #3
    COL
    COL is offline
    A110 COL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Van Diemen's Land
    Posts
    4,339

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    Hello All,
    I finally buttoned up my R8 enough to give it a go... I noticed it was very slow to turn over and drained the battery quite quickly. I also cranked it over by hand and found it to be very tight. There is also a dull rubbing sound as it turns. Not a metal on metal sound...but almost rubber on metal.

    My only thought is that perhaps the crank seal isn't seated correctly and rubbing against the flywheel?

    I installed new seals all around.... had the valves redone and installed a new clutch. Hardly a majorly invasive surgery. Thoughts? Cheers, Ben
    Remove the spark plugs and try turning it over with the crank handle, should turn over easily.

    I had problems with a main seal in my Virage about 13 years ago causing a horrible noise after an engine rebuild, I ended up changing the seal.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Hello Simon! Pistons and Conrods were never removed. This was solely a valve job and seal redo..... I am giving her an extra long charge right now....we'll see what happens... Ben
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Unlikely to be a crank seal, they wouldn't hold an engine tight regardless of how badly sized or incorrectly fitted they are. For peace of mind, it sounds like engine out time, then turn the sucker upside down on an engine stand. It could be a multitude of different things. Tight or incorrectly marked main/conrod bearings, tight or incorrectly marked pistons, tight piston rings with no gap.......etc etc....

    On the bright side, it could even be a tired starter or battery, it depends on what you call tight when turning it over by hand :-)

    Things are going to have to be diagnosed by a process of elimination.

  5. #5
    Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    6,203

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    Hello Simon! Pistons and Conrods were never removed. This was solely a valve job and seal redo..... I am giving her an extra long charge right now....we'll see what happens... Ben
    Oooo.... So what was the history of the motor before the head job? It could also be a multitude of other things. Try Col's suggestion of pulling the plugs, and see what goes.
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
    2002 Land Rover Defender Td5 130 - ex-CFA Region 4
    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    The history before the head job is that it sat for nearly 40 years and has about 73,000 miles on the odometer....... But other than that it ran amazingly except for the incredibly weepy seals.....

  7. #7
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    The history before the head job is that it sat for nearly 40 years and has about 73,000 miles on the odometer....... But other than that it ran amazingly except for the incredibly weepy seals.....
    That is the important comment - you had it running well immediately before dealing with the head and the seals. There will be friction of course but.... I found after my last engine rebuild, so with maximum piston and ring friction before running in, that I could spin it well enough on the starter motor with the plugs out to bring up oil pressure before I started it for the first time.

    Did you use the correct bolts for the flywheel re-attachment to the crankshaft? Is something very wrong with the fan belt, alternator and water pump? I had a water pump stop dead a couple of months ago, with much squealing of belts, blue smoke etc before I stopped and worked out the problem (on the Citroen, not the R8).
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    2,805

    Default

    Hi
    This has no reason just a wild guess as you are puzzled. You may have incorrectly fitted a longer bolt in a place where it is just contacting some soft item behind.
    Double check any potential places. I have even seen an incorrect long bolt fitted into an engine which locked the camshaft.
    Good luck Jaahn

  9. #9
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    It's how I roll...Brisbane
    Posts
    33,972

    Default

    Could it be rust on the inside of the cylinders causing friction...?
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  10. #10
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    This has no reason just a wild guess as you are puzzled. You may have incorrectly fitted a longer bolt in a place where it is just contacting some soft item behind.
    Double check any potential places. I have even seen an incorrect long bolt fitted into an engine which locked the camshaft.
    Good luck Jaahn
    Yes, just this week a friend locked up a Dauphine Gordini motor this way, with a slightly over length bolt through the flywheel.

    Something like that is my best guess too.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  11. #11
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Could it be rust on the inside of the cylinders causing friction...?
    Doubt it, as the motor was running well before being partly dismantled to fit seals. I'd like to be there and feel it on the crank handle.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    This sounds like a good option.... Now which one could it be...hmmmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    This has no reason just a wild guess as you are puzzled. You may have incorrectly fitted a longer bolt in a place where it is just contacting some soft item behind.
    Double check any potential places. I have even seen an incorrect long bolt fitted into an engine which locked the camshaft.
    Good luck Jaahn

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    John,
    I made sure the cylinders had wd40 or some kind of lube to inhibit rust and I regularly cranked it over. There were a few times where they were locked, but it busted free with a little prodding. The four bolts on the flywheel were the original pieces. All others were replaced due to corrosion. Any thoughts on which bolts may be causing the rubbing? Ben
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Doubt it, as the motor was running well before being partly dismantled to fit seals. I'd like to be there and feel it on the crank handle.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    I will see if I can record the sound when cranking over the engine tonight. I am also going to disconnect the belt to rule that out. Also, I also had the cross member powder coated. This is connected to the rest of the body through a grounding wire (see pre powder coat photo) . Should I scrape back some of the powder coat at the hole to ensure proper grounding? Also, I don't remember a ground wire to frame coming from the coil. If the coil holder is painted would this make a difference? I am running a pertronix electrinic ignition. Finally, when I crank over I am not getting any fuel being drawn into the pump. Do I need to prime the system somehow? Cheers in advance... Ben

    R8 tight handcrank... slow turnover with starter ...-ground-detail.jpg

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,425

    Default

    Those earth questions would be a good place to start I think.
    KB


  16. #16
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    2,805

    Default sort your problems before starting !!

    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    I will see if I can record the sound when cranking over the engine tonight. I am also going to disconnect the belt to rule that out. Also, I also had the cross member powder coated. This is connected to the rest of the body through a grounding wire (see pre powder coat photo) . Should I scrape back some of the powder coat at the hole to ensure proper grounding? Also, I don't remember a ground wire to frame coming from the coil. If the coil holder is painted would this make a difference? I am running a pertronix electrinic ignition. Finally, when I crank over I am not getting any fuel being drawn into the pump. Do I need to prime the system somehow? Cheers in advance... Ben
    Hi
    My . If you have noticed a problem on reassembly, then sort that BEFORE you start the engine. If there is something rubbing or binding or whatever, starting the engine will only wear it away as a solution to stop the noise ?? Bad solution !

    As Col suggested earlier, pull the plugs and hand turn it. It should be free and turn easily. No noises from rubbing etc. If not then sort it by elimination before the next step. This is reassembly 101.

    Then you can look at starting the engine. Priming the carby is always a good idea. Having good earths is always a good idea.
    Jaahn

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    2,805

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    John,
    I made sure the cylinders had wd40 or some kind of lube to inhibit rust and I regularly cranked it over. There were a few times where they were locked, but it busted free with a little prodding. The four bolts on the flywheel were the original pieces. All others were replaced due to corrosion. Any thoughts on which bolts may be causing the rubbing? Ben
    Hi Ben,
    Not having worked on one of these motors for a loong while I am guessing.

    Did you replace the flywheel to crankshaft bolts x5 ? If so were the bolts EXACTLY the same length as the originals. There is not much room behind them !

    Was the seal driven in square and fully home. Not much room there either !
    Jaahn

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Hello Jaahn.... The bolts were the exact same.... They were in quite good shape..... The rest of the bolts..no.... I replaced all but the two long at the top that match the bell housing to the engine.... Ben
    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Ben,
    Not having worked on one of these motors for a loong while I am guessing.

    Did you replace the flywheel to crankshaft bolts x5 ? If so were the bolts EXACTLY the same length as the originals. There is not much room behind them !

    Was the seal driven in square and fully home. Not much room there either !
    Jaahn

  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    Hello Jaahn.... The bolts were the exact same.... They were in quite good shape..... The rest of the bolts..no.... I replaced all but the two long at the top that match the bell housing to the engine.... Ben
    Hmm. Jaahn has said it all really. This must be something that will be very obvious with hindsight.

    Did the engine mate up fully with the transaxle before you tightened the bolts, or did you have to use the bolts to pull it in? It should slide the whole way. I once had this trouble fitting a later R10 engine into an early R8 transaxle and it locked solid, but never actually would mate up fully.

    You need a fuel pump "avec levier" for priming a car like this that isn't driven a lot. They are well worth buying.

    Good luck as ever.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Hello John... The transaxle mated correctly... It took a few times, but it slid in completely. ... I am going to remove the sump as well and make sure nothing is rubbing as I crank it over. I doubt it could have happened, but I want to make sure a conrod didn't get bumped and fouled. Already dark here, so it will have to wait for another day... Thanks for the encouragement! Ben
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Hmm. Jaahn has said it all really. This must be something that will be very obvious with hindsight.

    Did the engine mate up fully with the transaxle before you tightened the bolts, or did you have to use the bolts to pull it in? It should slide the whole way. I once had this trouble fitting a later R10 engine into an early R8 transaxle and it locked solid, but never actually would mate up fully.

    You need a fuel pump "avec levier" for priming a car like this that isn't driven a lot. They are well worth buying.

    Good luck as ever.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Geraldton
    Posts
    1,636

    Default

    Hi Ben

    You'd expect the compression to be higher with a reconditioned head and ergo harder to turn.

    Does the engine spin more freely with the plugs out?

    What was the result of attempting to turn the motor over with the fan belt disconnected?

    Can you turn the fan and the generator easily by hand?

    Did you replace the bolts that secure the fan to the water pump pulley?

    If you suspect there is an earthing issue run a jumper lead from the negative post of the battery onto the motor.

    Also check that the +ve cable to the battery is on properly.

    We'll get there...

    P
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

  22. #22
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forzamacchi View Post
    Hello John... The transaxle mated correctly... It took a few times, but it slid in completely. ... I am going to remove the sump as well and make sure nothing is rubbing as I crank it over. I doubt it could have happened, but I want to make sure a conrod didn't get bumped and fouled. Already dark here, so it will have to wait for another day... Thanks for the encouragement! Ben
    Don't pull the sump off until you've done everything else you can think of. Take on Exfrogger's suggestions first! He's just up the road from us, about 400 km that is.

    Are you confusing it "bouncing on the compression" with a crank handle with stiffness?

    As he said, "we'll get there".

    Cheers
    Last edited by JohnW; 26th October 2015 at 07:58 PM.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  23. #23
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Box Hill, victoria
    Posts
    69

    Default

    How come no one has mentioned engine timing???

    I meant ignition timing!
    Last edited by JohnMasefield; 26th October 2015 at 09:40 PM. Reason: afterthought

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    rosevale/tasmania
    Posts
    2,873

    Default

    I have nothing substantive to add to the comments & suggestions of more learned colleagues but I do have one meta observation. This thread manifests nicely one of the better features of A.F.: the ready collegial availability of thoughts & ideas (& sometimes bits & pieces) on almost any topic likely to arise concerning our frog beasties.

    bonne chance! Peter

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! forzamacchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Los Angeles, United States
    Posts
    235

    Default

    I wholeheartedly agree.. I would be up a creek without a paddle if I didn't have AF as a forum. This is the first car I have ever attempted to work on..... and at no time have I ever been discouraged to ask another question.... for that I am grateful!
    I will do some testing tonight, though my time is being compressed because I will be in Hawaii 3rd-16th of next month... unfortunately for work. Cheers! Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    I have nothing substantive to add to the comments & suggestions of more learned colleagues but I do have one meta observation. This thread manifests nicely one of the better features of A.F.: the ready collegial availability of thoughts & ideas (& sometimes bits & pieces) on almost any topic likely to arise concerning our frog beasties.

    bonne chance! Peter

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •