16ts wont start
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Thread: 16ts wont start

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Icon5 16ts wont start

    My ever reliable 16TS is refusing to start and the transparent fuel filter adjacent the carby is not filling with petrol. I have verified that there is petrol in the tank so am thinking that the petrol pump has a problem. I have a spare but that was previously taken off when it was not producing enough fuel. I have lots of spare parts but not another usable pump. In the good old days one would simply purchase a repair kit and fix it but I'm not sure if these are obtainable these days.
    So, can anyone suggest a source, preferably in Aust. for a kit or a new or s/h pump?

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    Or would I be better off fitting an electric pump, which seem to be readily available?

    Don
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    my thoughts...
    *just to check that, say, the line isnt clogged with rust from the tank, you might blow some air down the inlet pipe to make sure you can
    *if you take the top off the pump, you might find visible material in there jamming/blocking it.
    *i have a couple of old pumps which may or may not work. i would be happy to send you one if you PM me your details.
    *personally, i fitted an electric pump, which are as you say, readily available. if you did that, i note that you should use a tachometric relay, which switches the pump off when the HT spark stops. you can get them from lpg repair shops. it seems obvious, but when i had an electric pump fitted to a car some years back, they didnt fit such a relay, which i later found surprising when i realised the risk.



    alexander.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Or a normally open oil pressure switch. Kills the fuel pump if oil pressure goes down so there's some extra benefit (and potential problems, of course). Simpler and more reliable as well as easier to diagnose when it fails.

    Make sure however that you get a low pressure pump and check if you need a regulator with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Or a normally open oil pressure switch. Kills the fuel pump if oil pressure goes down so there's some extra benefit (and potential problems, of course). Simpler and more reliable as well as easier to diagnose when it fails.
    .
    well no it isnt 'simpler and more reliable' as there is nothing non simple or unreliable about the type of relay designed for this specific purpose and used on millions of cars in that capacity. furthermore, with an oil pressure switch your car wont start until you crank it enough to build up enough oil pressure to set the switch. which is obviously a really bad idea. diagnoses of either is trivial, but given that you can hear tachometric relays click on and off when you simply turn the key to Ign, it is hard to see how a silent oil pressure relay could be somehow easier.

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    In South Africa, the Opel Kadet and Opel Astra SOHC 1600 models used the same mechanical pump. I cannot tell if you had any of these in Australia as Holdens but it is possible that if you did it would be more of a chance to get a new one. You can extend your search that way.
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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    I had a similar fuel supply issue on a car once.
    Replaced the mechanical pump, filters, etc. but still a problem.
    Like you, thought about putting in a electric fuel pump, which I did but the problem was still there.
    Long story short, eventually tracked it down to a problem with the rubber fuel line between the tank and the metal fuel line.
    Over the years the rubber went hard and the vibrations eventually made the internal diameter of the pipe too big to seal correctly onto the metal pipe.
    So the fuel pump, while perfectly okay, was just sucking air through the rubber pipe and not drawing fuel (or enough fuel) from the tank.
    Replaced the rubber section and all was wonderful in the world again.
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    1000+ Posts driven's Avatar
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    OR you could do an Outback Adventures fix

    Fuel Can mounted on car roof, with a fuel line leading to carbie....easiest

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    Thanks for all the ideas fellows. I think I will leave the fuel can on roof one until I'm on an 'outback adventure'.

    Don
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    COL
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    The diaphragm most likely has a hole in it. or the little valves in the pump are not sealing properly.

    There are several tests that you can do like remove 3 hoses and crank over the engine and you should feel suction from the pump inlet.

    Connect a hose to the carby fuel inlet and use a funnel to fill the float bowl and start the car, this will prove the carby is fine.

    But from experience it will be the pump and they are available on ebay.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    well no it isnt 'simpler and more reliable' as there is nothing non simple or unreliable about the type of relay designed for this specific purpose and used on millions of cars in that capacity. furthermore, with an oil pressure switch your car wont start until you crank it enough to build up enough oil pressure to set the switch. which is obviously a really bad idea. diagnoses of either is trivial, but given that you can hear tachometric relays click on and off when you simply turn the key to Ign, it is hard to see how a silent oil pressure relay could be somehow easier.
    That is right, but it takes one turn of the crank to push oil to the switch membrane and build enough pressure to switch it on. To test the switch all you have to do is ground its wire and crank the car instead of relying on your hearing. Car starts, switch bad. Job done.

    Tachy relay - about what? 80 bucks or so? Actually when I was looking into it years ago, I could only find one general purpose tachy relay made by Bosch and they wanted 200 bucks for it hence I went the switch route. Switch - 30 bucks tops. And by the way, so is the switch - I mean designed to be used for such applications in millions of cars. Mind you the switch is not sensitive to battery voltage either. Like I said, simpler, more reliable, cheaper.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 20th October 2015 at 01:16 PM.
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Tachy relay - about what? 80 bucks or so? Actually when I was looking into it years ago, I could only find one general purpose tachy relay made by Bosch and they wanted 200 bucks for it hence I went the switch route. Switch - 30 bucks tops. And by the way, so is the switch - I mean designed to be used for such applications in millions of cars. Mind you the switch is not sensitive to battery voltage either. Like I said, simpler, more reliable, cheaper.
    every lpg cab in australia has one, and every lpg repair station sells them.
    they dont sense battery voltage. they sense HT pulses from the / a coil.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, but they're powered and work on the + not the ground. Back when I was trying to get one they may have had them, but weren't selling to "the public" (safety excuses - maybe didn't want any dik messing around the LPG).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    If it we're me I'd stick to a mechanical pump for anything with a carby.
    The biggest advantage of a mechanical pump over an electric pump is that it is speed related.
    When you need more fuel at high revs the mechanical pump is pumping more, At low revs is pumping less.
    Your electric pumps are running at the same speed all the time and that's usually at the higher speed so you don't have fuel starvation at high revs.
    Yes the pump or carb will probably have a overflow back to the tank but I'd prefer not to have far too much fuel going into the carb in the first place.

    Oh, and if you do go with the electric pump, you can get vacuum switches as well.
    Engine running = vacuum present = switch on.
    Engine off = no vacuum = switch off.

    Cheers
    Ren
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    Just a note on using air pressure to clear the line back to the tank , make sure you have the fuel cap off ,i did this once on the forecourt of my country garage ,blew a hole in the bottom of the rusty tank which was full at the time ,very interesting ,fuel everywhere ,cross the road from the pub ,blokes smoking etc ,fortunately it was my work van so quickly found a big self tapping screw and a washer from a roofing screw and bunged the hole lying under the van in a big pool of petrol ,exciting . The bung was there till the day i sold the van , lesson learned pugs
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    Default Electric pump !

    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    If it we're me I'd stick to a mechanical pump for anything with a carby.
    The biggest advantage of a mechanical pump over an electric pump is that it is speed related.
    When you need more fuel at high revs the mechanical pump is pumping more, At low revs is pumping less.
    Your electric pumps are running at the same speed all the time and that's usually at the higher speed so you don't have fuel starvation at high revs.
    Yes the pump or carb will probably have a overflow back to the tank but I'd prefer not to have far too much fuel going into the carb in the first place.

    Oh, and if you do go with the electric pump, you can get vacuum switches as well.
    Engine running = vacuum present = switch on.
    Engine off = no vacuum = switch off.

    Cheers
    Ren
    Hi
    My random thoughts.
    While it may be a small safety risk to have an electric pump without a cut-out it has never been a problem in past times that I have heard or seen. A ruptured fuel pipe is not common.
    An electric pump can make starting easier if the vehicle is not often used, with a carby. You switch the ignition on, the fuel fills the bowl and then it will start first up if it ok. With a mechanical pump it takes a while to refill the bowl by cranking the engine. Having a oil pressure switch in the system may inhibit this a bit.
    The electric pumps for low pressure can be the type that pulse to pump. So they work like a mechanical type and just pump as necessary for the flow required. Not sure if these are still readily available but that was the replacement type I have fitted in past years. Never had a problem with keeping up the supply. I would be careful about a system with a return line and check the flow.
    I think that electric fuel pumps are a bit like electronic ignitions, a step forward, and then we say why didn't we do this years ago.
    Cheers Jaahn
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    Quote Originally Posted by REN TIN TIN View Post
    If it we're me I'd stick to a mechanical pump for anything with a carby.
    The biggest advantage of a mechanical pump over an electric pump is that it is speed related.
    When you need more fuel at high revs the mechanical pump is pumping more, At low revs is pumping less.
    Your electric pumps are running at the same speed all the time and that's usually at the higher speed so you don't have fuel starvation at high revs.
    Yes the pump or carb will probably have a overflow back to the tank but I'd prefer not to have far too much fuel going into the carb in the first place.

    Oh, and if you do go with the electric pump, you can get vacuum switches as well.
    Engine running = vacuum present = switch on.
    Engine off = no vacuum = switch off.

    Cheers
    Ren
    My R17TS has a cheapy electric pump running 2 X 2 Side draft Webers and supplies plenty of fuel at 6500 rpm. I have managed 150 kph down the straight at Lakeside with no fuel problems. In fact I have to have a pressure reduction valve.

    Perhaps I should fit a vacuum switch it sounds like the easiest solution. I wonder would one cylinder pull enough vacuum? It does for brake vacuum unit.

  17. #17
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    I ran an electric pump from an early Subaru for many years on the R8. For a car that isn't used all the time, either a pump "avec levier" or an electric pump are the only sensible options for my money. You don't want to use the starter motor for pumping fuel, especially on a 16TS, thinking of access when it fails prematurely.

    Mechanical pumps "avec levier" aren't available for the 16TS AFAIK, so I'd go electric personally.

    My only concern would be to secure the fuel lines (NEW ONES) well and check whether the brass tube fitting at the carby is tight. Best to fit one that is screwed in not pressed in, but I don't know how the 16TS carby fittings are arranged as I never had to touch ours.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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