TS Europa Fuel issue
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Thread: TS Europa Fuel issue

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default TS Europa Fuel issue

    Hi

    We recently got our 1969 Lotus Europa on the road after an extensive rebuild. Part of this was the fitting of a TS engine which was totally rebuilt, however we're having a bit of a problem where the car will be running fine, but then randomly cut out and refuse to start. For example tonight, I drove it to my uncle's, sat and had a beer for an hour or so, drove it home, stopped in front of the garage, let it idle in the drive while I opened the garage door but the engine died when I went to drive it into the shed, and then refused to restart. It did a similar thing on its last trip out where it was running fine, I stopped for petrol, drove out of the station, went 200 metres down the road and the motor died and refused to restart (not a good look in a vintage sportscar), we trailered it home, and it started right up the next morning.

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    Our guess is that it's a fuel issue possibly with the way we've set up the fuel return lines. Our pump has three outlets, one we assumed was a return line, which we have connected to a T junction with the return line from the carby (its a 32DIR weber), back to the tank. I was just wondering if anyone could tell me if thats the correct way of doing this? Even better would be a few photos. Our feeling at the moment is we're overfueling the carby.

    I'm sorry I don't have a snap of how we have it set up at the moment, I can do that tomorrow if you think it'll help. Regardless, i've attached a photo of the engine in the car, just to prove my Renault credentials

    Any help, much appreciated.

    Regards,

    Lloyd

    TS Europa Fuel issue-img_1825.jpg

  2. #2
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    yes, re the pump: one line in, one to carby/s, one fuel return which goes to the inlet 2/3 up the side of the tank.
    if the car has been sitting for some years, i would guess you have rust in the bottom of the tank.
    the pickup is right on the bottom of the tank, so any rust in the tank, and you get blockages.

    when i re registered mine after a decade in the garage, the trip from the blue slip to the motor registry involved stopping twice to blow through the fuel line, and finally got home gravity feeding it from a drink bottle.

    this is jumping the gun, but IF that is the problem, there are 4 bolts holding the tank in. on mine 3 of those involved getting vice grips on the nuts, in the cavity in front of the rear wheel. then i put the front wheels on some 4x2 (for more nose clearance), hoisted the back of the car up with a chain under the tranny mount, and an engine hoist, and lifted it till the nose touched the ground. THEN you have enough clearance to pull the tank out from underneath.

    IF it is rusty tank, the filter may show rust in it, but not necessarily - the rust could be blocking the pickup without sending anything up into the filter. If your tank has a drain plug, i would try undoing it to see what comes out. obviously with the car jacked up and a BIG container underneath. and all the usual cautions people feel the need to make because they assume you dont know how dangerous 25l of fuel in an open container is. If the drain plug wont come out (mine wouldnt) that would pretty much guarantee there is heap big rust on the bottom of the tank.

    Banks have tanks, and the incredibly helpful Steve Veris on the Yahoo group has a run of them made periodically.

    -------------
    The above is in case of rusty tank, but naturally i dont mean to sound like it couldnt be something else, as it always can, and usually is! you can open the top of the pump to inspect the diaphragm and valves. they could be worn. there could be some crap in it interfering with the valves.

    Cheers.

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    yes, re the pump: one line in, one to carby/s, one fuel return which goes to the inlet 2/3 up the side of the tank.
    if the car has been sitting for some years, i would guess you have rust in the bottom of the tank.
    the pickup is right on the bottom of the tank, so any rust in the tank, and you get blockages.

    when i re registered mine after a decade in the garage, the trip from the blue slip to the motor registry involved stopping twice to blow through the fuel line, and finally got home gravity feeding it from a drink bottle.

    this is jumping the gun, but IF that is the problem, there are 4 bolts holding the tank in. on mine 3 of those involved getting vice grips on the nuts, in the cavity in front of the rear wheel. then i put the front wheels on some 4x2 (for more nose clearance), hoisted the back of the car up with a chain under the tranny mount, and an engine hoist, and lifted it till the nose touched the ground. THEN you have enough clearance to pull the tank out from underneath.

    IF it is rusty tank, the filter may show rust in it, but not necessarily - the rust could be blocking the pickup without sending anything up into the filter. If your tank has a drain plug, i would try undoing it to see what comes out. obviously with the car jacked up and a BIG container underneath. and all the usual cautions people feel the need to make because they assume you dont know how dangerous 25l of fuel in an open container is. If the drain plug wont come out (mine wouldnt) that would pretty much guarantee there is heap big rust on the bottom of the tank.

    Banks have tanks, and the incredibly helpful Steve Veris on the Yahoo group has a run of them made periodically.

    -------------
    The above is in case of rusty tank, but naturally i dont mean to sound like it couldnt be something else, as it always can, and usually is! you can open the top of the pump to inspect the diaphragm and valves. they could be worn. there could be some crap in it interfering with the valves.

    Cheers.
    Hey thanks for the info, do you have a return from the carby as well?

    We've done the whole 'hoist car till you can't bear to watch' manoeuvre and the tank was cleaned and sealed using that solvent proof tank sealer, all the pick ups are clear, I double and triple checked them before the tank went back in and again with it in the car.

    Cheers

  4. #4
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    No chance the return line from the fuel pump is actually impeding drainage from the carby? To test, separate the lines.

    Interesting and good luck.
    JohnW

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by EuropaS2 View Post
    Hey thanks for the info, do you have a return from the carby as well?

    We've done the whole 'hoist car till you can't bear to watch' manoeuvre and the tank was cleaned and sealed using that solvent proof tank sealer, all the pick ups are clear, I double and triple checked them before the tank went back in and again with it in the car.

    Cheers
    oh.... so much for that theory! there is definitely a return to the tank; you can see the inlet on the upper side of the tank, right?
    my car did have it, but i changed it for an electric fuel pump.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Can it be the coil reaching a temperature that opens a break in the winding, then returns together when it has cooled. Many "fuel" faults are electrical.
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  7. #7
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    yes, I was thinking dodgy coil too. They can play up when getting warm, all smiles when cooled down again.

    I have a brushcutter with that problem now... it whips and snips for 10 to 15 min then dies, won't even try to restart till completely cold.

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    I got my Floride as far as the registration place and got it reregistered after 15 years. With a bunch of staff looking on it failed to start. Embarrassment. Tilt bed home and it started perfectly well. Yes it was the coil.

  9. #9
    dvr
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    It's fuel or spark. Next time it happens pull a spark lead off and check you've got one. Spark that is. If you have then check if it's got fuel in the carb. Take off the cleaner. Is there a string fuel smell as if it's too rich? Then see if there's a squirt of fuel when you pump the accelerator. If you've got both check timing. If one of the tests is a fail you need to work out why. Simple things like the coil mentioned or too small a gap in the points can be the issue. In fact that last one used to be quite common. The points is so easy to check do that first.
    Last edited by dvr; 28th September 2015 at 11:01 AM.

  10. #10
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    Another problem I once encountered (though most likely not your problem given your petrol refill story) was an incorrect fuel filler cap. The cap was off a later model that had a vent tube fitted to the tank so was a fully sealing cap and the tank required a breathing cap, but as I said, this would be the last thing I would check given your description and the much more likely problems mentioned above.

  11. #11
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    Next time it stalls squirt some fuel into the carbie/s if it starts its fuel if it don't its electrical.
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  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    Thanks for the input so far guys

    Dad and I spent a bit of time fiddling and we're still not sure we have the problem nailed. It seems to have stopped doing what it was after changing how our fuel lines were rigged but now seems to be spitting back through the carby. At one stage it even overheated (unrelated, I expect the lack of baffling around the radiator contributed) and still managed to start so we're leaning toward it being a fuel issue rather than a faulty coil. The points were also checked and seem ok.

    This is how the fuel lines are at the moment

    TS Europa Fuel issue-img_1917.jpg

    We're still not sure what the two outlets are on the top of the carby are, other than they both run into the top of the float chamber. Connected as they are now, seemed to help with the restarting issue and it smoothed the idle a bit as well but we don't know if this is right.

    Is this how it is done on a Renault? If not, how?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EuropaS2 View Post

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    I've attached a pic fromthe Renault 17 parts catalogue, as I think it illustrates what the factory did a bit clearer.

    The hose you have indicated as a float chamber ventilation pipe appears to link both of the orifices. As can be seen in the Renault 17 pic, the vents are connected to the air intake rather than looped onto each other. Whether this would cause the problem, I've no idea, perhaps it pressurises the carby float chamber with any vapour unable to escape. Otherwise all the other fuel pipes to the pump are correct. Also the carby fuel intake is correctly oriented to the front of the motor.

    And you are correct with the radiator baffling, otherwise all the air escapes around the spare wheel, into the front "boot" compartment.
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