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Thread: My R12 POS Arrived!

  1. #1351
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Oh this is good!

    I also like who he routed the coolant like on the head. Will be copying that.

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    And dam, I have a lot of work to do.

    In similarly related news, It's not going to pass rego every again. Mechanic wants me to put the window winders back in, that mighty be a problem since the rails have been cut out

    That's probably for the best really, now I can get a proper cage and just get on with it, without the compromises you in end up worrying about.

    Actually looking at VS Statesman tomorrow in effort to tow this nugget around the place. I figure why not an Aussie-Luxo-Barg, and at ~$1500, it's a cheap tow car (appears to have the supercharged V6 in it, just in time for Powercruise I suppose...)
    Last edited by bowie; 3rd February 2019 at 10:00 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  2. #1352
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Oh! I also love how he drilled out the bumper bar supports where his fog lights now sit

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  3. #1353
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renault Rod View Post
    Hey Bowie,

    You have Romanian cousin.
    Looks like he is having fun with his 1289 too.

    https://www.autoexpert.ro/fascinatie...um-am-crescut/

    Transmission = girl?
    Google Translate please explain.
    Is it unreasonable, temperamental, and need vast amounts of cash spent on it to keep happy.
    Sunroof and FIVEDOOR like this.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

  4. #1354
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    That looks really nice. I wonder what's in the engine, but 80Hp is not too shabby, especially for a non-cross flow head. Wonder why they didn't get one though. Engine should be good for about 120Hp+ with a good head.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  5. #1355
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I'd be happy with 80hp. 1hp per kg would be pretty gnarly.

    But yes most pretty. Maybe shiny paint is ok.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  6. #1356
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    I'd be happy with 80hp. 1hp per kg would be pretty gnarly.

    But yes most pretty. Maybe shiny paint is ok.

    1HP per kilogram would be about 700HP which would make your car faster than a Saturn V rocket.

    I go rule of thumb about 100HP per litre capacity, which is not that ambitious but it is pushing the limit of normally aspirated engines.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #1357
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Wow I just realised what I did.. But yes I'd still be happy with 1hp per kg

    Your rule, also good.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  8. #1358
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well since I've given up on rego, might as well install the buckets and harness properly.



    Some new 3mm steel L brackets that don't look like swiss cheese hold in the cobra's and they feel pretty good.

    Mercifully, the 19mm thread seatbelt bolts, share a thread with the harness eyelites, and the angles are pretty good, so huzzah I can reuse them

    So where is this going, well despite the sneaky track day here and there, and hopefully a tow vehicle soon (anyone want a volvo) the next thing will have to be some kind of roll cage, and a log book.

    The old mate whom wanted to make a manifold is still going at it, he was worried about a vacuum port before I told him I'd hook up a TPS as necessary, he seemed much more comfortable with that thought now.

    Oh speaking of manifolds, I suppose no I can go fun stuff like a straight pipe and side exiting exhaust.. hehehehe.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  9. #1359
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    For some reason can't edit prior post, more shots of carnage included.




    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  10. #1360
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Installed the air con today

    COL, J-man, Shoji and 1 others like this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  11. #1361
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Just want to collate the front camber modifications to these 12/15/17's

    -EA Flacon camber bolts on the inner side of the top control arm? (~4 degrees negative achievable)
    -Flip the top outer ball joint (~1.5 degree negative change, and have to drill out the control arm to accept the new bolt locations.
    -Weld 3mm steel plates into the chassis of the lower control arm locators (assume they are stepped to receive the control arm) and redrill the mounting point
    -Weld plates on the outer of the lower control arm, and re drill the ball joint location.
    -Buy $$$ longer lower control arms from Mecaparts.

    Is that pretty much what you gals and guys have done before?

    Would it be suitable to weld plates on the outer of the lower control arms, and drill slits for the lower ball joint to provide some crude adjustment?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  12. #1362
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I would try to look at a modification of the lower arm attaching brackets.

    I would enlarge those holes and make an eccentric sleeve with a hex head that fits through and run the suspension shaft through that. All you need is to enlarge the four holes and have the four eccentrics machined on a lathe (even I can do that on my lathe).

    The only real trick is to enlarge the existing holes keeping concentricity, but you would have similar problems with all the other ideas as well.

    If you ask the Renault 8/10 guys, their cars have an eccentric sleeve like that that does a similar thing on their cars from factory. On these cars, the eccentric adjusts the inboard angle of the front lower suspension arm, I forgot why. Ask them what is the size of the bore of those bushings to see if you can just get four of those and use them straight away.

    Come to think of it, your 12 has one of those eccentric bushings with a hex as well. It is used to adjust the rack height. Have a look at it.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 16th February 2019 at 11:58 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  13. #1363
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    Those adjusters on the R8/R10 are mostly for caster although you do get a very slight camber adjustment.

    Now that the Bowie car does not have the problem of rego compliance, the most effective solution is to rose joint the whole thing front and rear. Fully adjustable camber, caster, anti dive, roll centres, toe, ride height with no spongy/sloppy rubber joints anywhere in the suspension. No need to copy or follow compromises made on road cars 50 years ago.
    bowie likes this.

  14. #1364
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Eccentric arms and sleeves are witchcraft. My brain hurt until I realised the actually height, would be moving up and down depending on the rotation, in conjunction with the length.

    Given that ball joints are flexible, I'm still not sure I understand why the extra length wouldn't just cause the ball joint to lean over more, thus cancelling out the extension. But I'm prepared to believe it works as I've seen it with my eyes!

    This is the sort of arrangement you are thinking toward?

    http://www.mecaparts.com/Chassis/mp2229.jpg

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  15. #1365
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    Bowie, the use of rose joints will be far simpler for you than trying to design eccentric bushes, sleeves, and adding considerable unsprung weight with crude plates and compromises.

    May I suggest that rather than using words and falling into confusion, draw some layouts and plot a few curves to see how suspension movements work, research some basic suspension design books by people such as Shelby or an old race car chassis engineering design book by Mike Costin/David Phipps - facts and solid engineering.

    You will then have a better picture of the most cost effective way to achieve your objective.
    FIVEDOOR likes this.

  16. #1366
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    Those adjusters on the R8/R10 are mostly for caster although you do get a very slight camber adjustment.

    Now that the Bowie car does not have the problem of rego compliance, the most effective solution is to rose joint the whole thing front and rear. Fully adjustable camber, caster, anti dive, roll centres, toe, ride height with no spongy/sloppy rubber joints anywhere in the suspension. No need to copy or follow compromises made on road cars 50 years ago.
    Thinking toward the lower control arm, the stock ones are really beefy right? I mean I feel like I've seen flimsier arms on modern high-powered things which would have much more loads to deal with? Reno made it massive so it would last forever? What if I just went and made a triangle out of moderate box section and indeed welded suitable rose joints and, well I could re-use the stock ball joint I suppose.

    i.e something like this,


    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  17. #1367
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    [QUOTE=bowie;1602479] Given that ball joints are flexible

    Bowie, rubber bushes are flexible, however automotive ball joints are usually not, unless they are completely worn out. A ball joint is a ball and socket joint where the end of the joint moves about the centre of the ball housed in a socket. These are fixed geometric points.

    The centre of the axis only moves when the joint is worn out which is why you replace worn ball joints.

    Because rubber is flexible, the geometry of a standard rubber bush on a road car is not a fixed point. It is more important to have comfort and ride on a road car whereas on a competition car, performance is more important than ride and comfort.

  18. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Thinking toward the lower control arm, the stock ones are really beefy right? I mean I feel like I've seen flimsier arms on modern high-powered things which would have much more loads to deal with? Reno made it massive so it would last forever? What if I just went and made a triangle out of moderate box section and indeed welded suitable rose joints and, well I could re-use the stock ball joint I suppose.

    i.e something like this,

    Exactly, 10 out of 10 Bowie.

  19. #1369
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Eccentric arms and sleeves are witchcraft. My brain hurt until I realised the actually height, would be moving up and down depending on the rotation, in conjunction with the length.

    Given that ball joints are flexible, I'm still not sure I understand why the extra length wouldn't just cause the ball joint to lean over more, thus cancelling out the extension. But I'm prepared to believe it works as I've seen it with my eyes!

    This is the sort of arrangement you are thinking toward?

    http://www.mecaparts.com/Chassis/mp2229.jpg
    Yep, that's them. That contraption does away with the lower arm inboard bushes as well, so that is a step towards what Bustamif has said.

    R12s have been tuned to death, no need to reinvent the wheel here. I don't think I have seen a setup with more than 3 degrees of negative camber front. The rear requires massive re-engineering to make it adjustable. Besides, it works very well. Yes, rose joints would be the go for a balls out race car, but I don't think you can justify that step yet. Nolathane bushings, perhaps a copy of the Mecaparts system (like I said, even I could turn the necessary hardware on my lathe - by that I mean a decent machine shop would have no problem making everything for you) for the front and see how you go then.

    Reading books is very useful, the trick is to find them. Studying on paper how the suspension works is useful as well, but that is not going to tell you how the car will respond. One thing experienced people tell newbies in my kind of racing (RC cars) is make one change at a time so you can see what the effect is and dial things back if it's not what you want. Keep setup sheets with you as well, and take notes of everything you do and what the result was. Otherwise you'll confuse yourself and chase your tail forever.

    The only downside of that setup from Mecaparts is that adjusting camber will change your front roll centre as well. An independent adjustment is way better, but in your case, that would mean a rose jointed lower arm. If you go that way, you will have to find some other way to adjust roll centre. But don't worry about this stuff just yet.

    Like I said above, your first goal is to find a baseline setup that works and keep that as a reference. Start fine tuning things from there and if you make a boo boo, you know the way back to the setup that works.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #1370
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Sadly no lower control arm updates, I've been distracted with a slow coolant leek it's developed.

    It has developed it after having removed the heater box and associated plumbing. Well.. there was probably always a leak, now I've just noticed it.

    Now.

    I'm assuming this is a sign of a bearing slowly failing, that is a drip from just behind the pulley?




    That's a new water pump time isn't it.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  21. #1371
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Sadly no lower control arm updates, I've been distracted with a slow coolant leek it's developed.

    It has developed it after having removed the heater box and associated plumbing. Well.. there was probably always a leak, now I've just noticed it.

    Now.

    I'm assuming this is a sign of a bearing slowly failing, that is a drip from just behind the pulley?




    That's a new water pump time isn't it.
    The seal in the water pump is leaking.

    Yes time for a new water pump.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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  22. #1372
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    FYI this guy from WA was cheap enough (thank you WA)

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Water-Pu.../181908295289?
    COL likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  23. #1373
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well it's the weekend and I dont have to be anywhere. Yaaaaaaaaay, so since the thing is running so nice with the 32/32 on it, why not ruin it and put the 32/36 on it just because!

    Firstly; this is he vacumn port that the choke uses? I can just blank it off?




    Oh I went and bought some taps, and I made a thread! my first ever! go me!



    The bolt is a little long, but hay it's in there, and covered with sealant and nothing is leaking.


    Also, I've reused the exhaust shield bolt to mount the return spring. Now It'd likely to get hot I reckon, Good idea or am I just abusing that spring and one day it'll go ping and I'll have to reach for the emergency shut off...

    Renault Rod likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  24. #1374
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Also a moments notice for piece of electrical tape that tried to hold the vacuum, but alas, upon a backfire was sent hurdling to it's death, being impaled on a 6mm bolt.
    RIP piece of plastic.

    https://youtu.be/qiudBpD0M8k
    Renault Rod likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  25. #1375
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    If instead of that bolt you used a stud or a longer bolt to give the spring some distance form the manifold I reckon you'd be okay.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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