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Thread: My R12 POS Arrived!

  1. #1076
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well I donated the morning doing rather then thinking about how to mount the VR sensor.

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    My block on the inlet/exhaust side has seemingly a mount for the alternator still cast in it just above the engine mount? It's a great big M16 hole, and I think this will be the mounting point for the sensor.

    I wasted my time today drilling and cutting flat bar trying to guess my why there, I will need to be more accurate then that. I think I'm going to end up with 2 x 30x30mm right angles forming a.. um.. Kinda "L" I suppose in effort to clear the front of the block and still have adjust-ability to clear the belt and get the sensor within the mm's required.

    Back to measuring.
    Last edited by bowie; 1st July 2018 at 03:37 PM.
    FIVEDOOR likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  2. #1077
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well this didn't work.

    Worrying about getting bends and angle correctly, I went about designing a way to mount it to that alternator bracket and be able to adjust it up down, front and back.

    This was close,

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180701_191617197.jpg

    Merely a 30mm cylinder about 45mm in length with a face drawn out of it to pass the base of the sensor and cable back into the middle, and eventually out the front.

    To adjust for proximity, the sensor could be shimmed closer to the trigger wheel with washers or, since the bracket was a cylinder, I could rotate it against it's housing (long bolt through the middle) to fine tune it.

    Close, but the water pump belt is in the way.

    I could get some additional plate and offset the cylinder perhaps, but it's not really elegant and I don't have a welder so yeah.

    I might move on to the timing cover housing and work out how to offset it enough to clear, and to make that rigid enough enough.

    I was so excited for my cylinder idea too.

    wah


    Hmm. Nope, that position is too good to give up on (as shown by the clean washer)

    My R12 POS Arrived!-vr-sensor.jpg

    I'm going to cheat and go and buy some right angle stock.
    Last edited by bowie; 1st July 2018 at 10:26 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  3. #1078
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    How much flex is there in that front cross member? I note it is solidly mounted to the block and rubber mounted to the chassis. That would an even handier sensor mounting position.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  4. #1079
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    You don't care as long as the cross member is rigidly fixed to the block.

    What cross member are you talking about, anyway?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  5. #1080
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    How much flex is there in that front cross member? I note it is solidly mounted to the block and rubber mounted to the chassis. That would an even handier sensor mounting position.
    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    You don't care as long as the cross member is rigidly fixed to the block.

    What cross member are you talking about, anyway?
    Bowie is talking about the balance bar that is bolt to the front of the motor and then connects to the weights that are connected to the engine mounts.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  6. #1081
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    .... that's probably a better name for it.

    Yes I am. That appears hard mounted to the engine?

    Having said that. I think I'm going to borrow one of the sump mounting points for a small right angle bracket now

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  7. #1082
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Get a load of this bracket

    My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk57741.jpg
    My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk57737.jpg
    My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk57733.jpg

    Just look how cute it is

    So this is a tiny right angle, attaching to the front left hand sump bolt, with a 3mm spacer (just a square with a M6 hole in the middle) in height, and then pointed at the back of trigger wheel. The sump is attached with M6 bolts if you must no, as is the VR sensor.

    Fits rather snug I must say! Oh this is at it's longest setting, I'm going to remove that spacer and just add a couple of small washers to step it out a little bit because.. yeah things wobble I'm sure. From here I just have to attack everything with lock tight, and then wire everything up. Success.

    It looks fiddly, and it is, but all promise me the sensor is a crude bit of kit and should work within this setting.
    Sunroof, COL and Shoji like this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  8. #1083
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    With the trigger wired up and it was time to find a fuse and a switch and make some crappy connections and test it all.

    SUCCESS!

    -Bluetooth connection to the laptop works
    -VR sensor Works
    -Reading the map from the ECU works
    -Adjusting the trigger offset works (in software at least)

    Software was reporting a few lost VR inputs on start up (with the engine running, I had a switch to turn the ECU on, there is probably a couple of passes before everything work up and it started counting) whilst reving the thing worked without any syc drops. So it is going to work.

    Alas! I had no safe way of connecting the ford coil pack (didn't think to order a plug did I) so that will have to wait till another day.

    Also a test mock up in the engine bay; I think I'll use the grommet for the boot release and will mount the device on the inside of the firewall just because. The generic length wiring harness has more then enough length to reach everything except I will have to make an extension to the shielded VR cable. I'll run that along the drivers side of the engine bay on the chassis rail, just to avoid going under the radiator and out near the alternator / HT leads.

    Oh, the existing dizzy location looks good for the coil pack. Once it comes out, a plate will cover the opening, and a flat base mounted with some narrow tube, so 40mm in height just to bring it up just a smidge. Looking at it quickly you may forget to think anything of it.

    This should allow me to run pretty short HT leads which is nice I suppose? If that looks silly a right angle bracket will be made where the existing coil is and I'll just dump the thing there.

    Race is on to get it done in time for the muster next weekend.

    Huzzah.
    ReidarUF likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  9. #1084
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, good proof of concept.

    If you are very extra super nice to me and give me a dimension sketch I might machine you that bracket in Aluminium.

    Well done.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  10. #1085
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    ooooh custom aluminium bracketing!

    I'll see how I go

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  11. #1086
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Gah, I got impatient waiting for overnight parts from Japan and went looking locally for the Bosch coil pack connector to mount the wasted spark coil pack, to the ECU neatly. You know, so one can remover it later if they want. The coil pack is a bit tight to jam glue in over the terminals, so lets do this right and find a 3 pin Bosch clip!

    My first failure was assuming that Bosch, being sensible Germans, would have a standard plug layout where they varied the pin configuration as required. So with that in mine I took to the bonnet of a few Bosch equipped dungers, a Hyundai Gets and a Kia Sorento.

    Some lads bought them of Gumtree for a track day, to nuke them and catch the bus home.

    ******s..

    Anyway, so out come the batteries and with a pocket full of the usual tools, (wire cutters, 8,9,10,11,12mm spanners and sockets) I dig in and salvage a handful of male and female connectors in 2, 3 and 4 pin configurations, and a couple of air temp sensors, and a spare VR sensor from the cam of Sorento just for good measure.

    Getting them clean at home. Yes the pin layouts seems to be as I thought, standard measurement between all , but alas the packaging of the pins, the plastic housing they live in is all fsking different!

    I suppose It makes sense so one doesn't accidentally install the TPS into the VR sensor, or the air temp into the injector but geees!! I reckon there must be a different pin housing at each location, despite pin layouts being identical! Thats really annoying. For me.

    For what it's worth, the male end of the Hyundai Gets (Bosch TPS) is pretty close to the Bosch wasted spark coil pack connector. I could nearly cut down the male housing to fit, and then just pack the coil pack with glue to keep it in place.

    The second failing was then using my lunch break to nip around to Bursons. Surely they will save me.

    "Yeah I need a Ford / Bosch, coil pack connector, it was on the EL, EA Falcon, along with the Ford Ka, Festiva and Early Focus's..
    "Sorry to interrupt but no way."
    "..er, no way?"
    "yeah we don't keep any connectors or stuff like that here."
    "ah.. ok, so how about a replacement loom for a EL, EA, Ford Ka, Festiva or Early Foc..
    "No no no, nothing like that hear".

    The third failing was to then sit on hold to a local Ford Dealer waiting to get someone in parts. 45mins later I gave up.

    Oh well...

    My $28 3 pin male Bosch EDIS coil pack connector plug might be here next week.

    Suppose I'll just have to be patient.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  12. #1087
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    "bowie"

    These people I trust, because each of the megajolt units I have done all the connectors worked with all the sensors that were sent.

    Sensors and connectors

    Ray

    PS In Perth I use all the Ford wreckers, and 2 in particular are very helpful. They cut off connectors for me as well. Just remember most Ford/Mazda in Oz were not made to USA/European spec. The ECUs had the EDIS units inside, so they are not available here. But most sensors are the same.
    Last edited by geckoeng; 10th July 2018 at 10:30 PM.
    Ray geckoeng

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  13. #1088
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    Love the rear interior shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Just so we can keep track of these dam things, personal vin information as follows

    So all the R12 were built in Melbourne?

    Attachment 74406Attachment 74402Attachment 74404Attachment 74405

    Ah! and the 810-02, the proper big 1289cc and not the sneaky little 1250ish cc?


    Olive Green is the best green
    Attachment 74403
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  14. #1089
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Not sure what the problem is, perhaps you could post a picture of your coil.

    Bosch has done many bespoke things for many manufacturers. Generic Bosch fittings exist on many non-Bosch equipped cars.

    Ford has their own fittings as well. They may look kinda like Bosch fittings but they are not.

    I have bought my EDIS setup with all the plugs from some random dude on ebay and it had everything I needed and everything worked.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #1090
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah it could be a bit of that ford / bosch kinda thing too.

    Well lets start at the coil pack. It looks like this;
    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_0764.jpg

    And yeah If I had a super fine tip soldering iron I could probably get in there and make something happen directly on the terminals. Or like a real race car, loosely wrap the wires around and fill the thing with super glue. But it's a nice new coil, that feels kinda mean... but I may just get impatient.

    The plug I need (and ordered last week) looks like this;
    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_0765.jpg


    Which is not just a standard Bosch 3 pin plug, as pilfered from the Kia and Hyundai the other day. As mentioned prior the pin dimensions are the same, its just the physical housing that differs to limit one McGuyvering things that shouldn't be together.
    My R12 POS Arrived!-3-pin-bosch-amp-junior-power-timer-jpt-connector-kit.jpg

    So we'll see how bored I get on the weekend.
    Last edited by bowie; 11th July 2018 at 11:12 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  16. #1091
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Right. Now I see your problem.

    That coil is what I have too.

    That is not a Bosch coil, but a Ford one. It may say Bosch on it, but it is not their design. Bosch did make those coils, but it just copied the Ford setup/design to make them as after market replacements perhaps for some markets or for times when Ford would cease production of said coil.

    The plug is also made by Ford.

    Look at the top left corner of the plug and you will see it has a key that matches the coil. That is Ford at work there, trying to make sure you don't plug some random similar three pin plug in the coil. I have seen other plugs like that but with the key in a different position, so you need to make sure you have the right one when you pilfer other cars (Fords). Or just get rid of the key.

    Bosch proprietary connectors are the most universal, but a lot of manufacturers have come up with their own connectors, especially Asians. Check a Toyota or a Honda and you will find their connectors don't match anything else. Likewise with the Koreans.

    Most Euro cars have just used Bosch but not all of them or not everywhere.

    The most difficult to find are the male Bosch connectors because the male side is usually moulded to some sender or TB/injector/air flow meter or some such.

    If you want a way out of this nightmare, you could settle on a style of connector you want to use and solder pigtails on all the senders with your choice of connector termination. That is what I have done on my 205GTI with all the Bosch connectors that were failing and I have chosen Deutsch connectors, which are available everywhere and the best. The biggest plus is that you can dismantle them and take out or replace just the individual pins with no damage, and you can buy the pins separately. Not very cheap, though.

    When it comes time to replace the part/coil/sender, just rip out the pigtail, solder it to the new part and away you go. I used good quality silicone to cover and close the soldered pigtails on the sender terminals but there's a myriad of things you can use. To gain better access all you need to do is cut away one side (I would cut the top) of the protective moulding on the coil. That will expose the tabs enough. Solder, heat shrink (glued tube) and fill with silicone the little cavity and you're set. With a Deutsch plug on the end, water or other undesirable agent ingress will never bother you again. Effective and elegant.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 12th July 2018 at 02:19 AM.
    bowie likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #1092
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ahhhh ok this makes sense. Thank you for clarifying that part design hierarchy stuff.

    Deutch connectors are lovely! I briefly had that thought then counted the elec components not currently terminated;

    -VR
    -Coil Pack
    -Air Temp

    and figured I'd get in moving again before going back and making everything lovely when I'll add the thermo fan, coolant temp, clutch switch, Map.

    And for all else playing at home, yep, there really isn't a lot to wire up.

    Programmable ignition is cool. I can't wait to fit a clutch switch next and be at the traffic lights going;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GlRK4Cef6Y


    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  18. #1093
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Just back from Jaycar, walked into pick up $2.50 worth of shielded cable and walk out with $40 worth of Deutsch connectors.

    i mean they were right there.

    Schlitzaugen, I like your idea of cutting the top of the key and just solder / shrink wrapping it.
    Yeah I can't wait for international shipping. What was I thinking.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  19. #1094
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Now you need the crimp tool too.
    KB


  20. #1095
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Nah. No need to crimp. Deutsch pins are silver nickel and solder very nicely. The upshot is you can replace wires later on if you want to.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  21. #1096
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Schlitzaugen, thanks for giving me permission to cut the top off!

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180712_210740625_ll.jpg

    Also well done to me wiring the colours back to front. The middle wire is actually the 12v and the outsides the switched earth to each coil pack.

    I was just so excited I managed to do this with my yr10 soldering skills.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  22. #1097
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Your soldering skills need some work.

    Use a powerful iron (80W ideal) and tin properly both things to be joined before you solder them. Bring in contact, heat at one end and apply a touch of solder at the opposite end. Heat will wick it up the join and will leave you with a neat factory look.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  23. #1098
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well now the easy one is done time to practise on those DT connectors.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  24. #1099
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Don't be too harsh schlitzaugen, although I agree the joint on the top looks like it will probably drop off after the first bump, the other two aren't too bad.

  25. #1100
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    If you solder those you will have to get good fast, because you need to insert the wire inside the pin and you can't mess it up or it won't go back in the casing.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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