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Thread: My R12 POS Arrived!

  1. #1026
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    Yeah, the normal head had all the ports on one side (only 5 of them), and the spark plugs where the carbs are in the pic. Using a Weber on a competition Mini usually required a metal box being fabricated into the firewall to accommodate them and give the necessary clearance and sealing for race regs (I think for fire resistance, especially if using ram pipes).

    The head in the pic is 8 port crossflow.

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    Last edited by Stuey; 1st June 2018 at 10:38 PM.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  2. #1027
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    Stock fuel pump isn't going to have enough pressure for fuel injection.

    The Siamese intake ports in the head may be an issue, you'll need a custom manifold gasket to keep the ports seperate. I'd look at adding some material to the junction of the ports in the head and then machining them to be further apart, but this would be a lot of work without access to a mill.

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    The issue with large throttles on small motors is the lack of low end throttle response, it'll be fine as long as you have your foot planted.

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  4. #1029
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    C.less, these are SU styled carbs, I actually may need to use the bikes fuel pump, as they require about 1.5-2psi at most. The mechanical pump on the 12 may prove to be to strong (I read somewhere it spits out about 4psi when new)

    Yes for the manifold I have about a mm of shared material between the walls, that will have to be extended and the runner built around that for at least the first 20mm or so.

    The gasket! Thank you for reminding me.
    Last edited by bowie; 2nd June 2018 at 11:05 AM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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  5. #1030
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Actually that's a good point. Those twin Webber manifolds I have seen attached to 8's and 10's. Homemade gasket to seperate the ports or did you just leave it as one twin choke Webber to two ports?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  6. #1031
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    You can buy fuel pressure regulators that are easily ajustable. They will hold the mechanical pump at the pressure your carbs require. DCOE Webers should also be held down to less than 3lbs/ sq inch.

  7. #1032
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Nah this will be easier, Assuming I leave the in tank pump in place and just remove the mechanical one.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/i/112945410638?var=413327423303

    They have built in regulators. Nifty
    Last edited by bowie; 2nd June 2018 at 12:50 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  8. #1033
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    Bowie, on that Mini pic I posted, the aluminium canister on the bulkhead next to the radiator expansion tank is a pressure regulator and filter combined. The screw on the top centre adjusts pressure.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  9. #1034
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Get yourself a filter/regulator off an Alfa 105. Does the same job for a twin DCOE setup.

    I think I might have a couple lying about if you want them.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  10. #1035
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Yeah that will help if you are happy for one of them to be re-purposed.

    I note "Weber Performance" in Melbourne stock the similar Malpassi filter/regs too. https://www.weberperformance.com.au/...ath=59_276_277

    Whats old is old is old is new.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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  11. #1036
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    Yeah, the Mini tuners used that exact brand years ago, so they've been around for some time!


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  12. #1037
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Nah this will be easier, Assuming I leave the in tank pump in place and just remove the mechanical one.

    https://www.ebay.com.au/i/112945410638?var=413327423303

    They have built in regulators. Nifty
    How do you decide which one of the dozens available to buy?
    JohnW

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  13. #1038
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    This is the one I (should) have:

    https://www.weberperformance.com.au/...D=1324&image=0

    They're off an Alfa 105 where they feed twin DCOE or DHLA for a 1750or 2l engine so should be good for you.

    If I remember correctly I have rebuilt mine.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  14. #1039
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well I have the ignition sorted now.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180612_100858198.jpg

    This is indeed that Nodiz Pro I had mentioned about earlier. A bit of reading and it's an interesting kinda thing actually

    So the story goes M-Tech Automotive is the connection. Back in the early days of Megasquirt, the founder here was at Uni, and for some pocket money was bringing in the DIY Mega-squirt kits, assembling them, and selling them within the UK. This gathered a bit of momentum to the point where he had a couple of mates assisting and making some good mark up.

    This is where the story gets a little messy. The legend goes that within the UK there was a bit of competition now going on, and one of the re-sellers kicked up some dirt / and they (M-Tech) had mad a few crappy Mega-squirts that had got some bad press within the community, to the point where they were then labeled as making illegal clones, and kind of pushed out of the Mega-squirt inner sanctum.. What ever that is..

    Anyway they seemed to continue to assemble kits for a bit as a giant FU to the others in the Mega-Squirt click, before then stopping, and starting again with the new company, "Motorsport Electronics"

    So this Nodiz Pro, is probably in reality borrows a lot of that Mega-squirt history and functionally, and in reality acts as a Mega-Jolt does (which is really just the Meqa-squirt Extra code stuff)

    So what's the difference?

    -Bigger programmable table (16x16 instead of 12x12)
    -Bluetooth connection instead of serial / USB.
    -Will work with 36-1 or 60-2 triggers.
    -Has the Ford EDIS Ignition drivers built in (no need for an EDIS module, I just need to connect a Ford / Bosch Coil pack, no idea at this stage if it will work in the limp home mode that the EDIS stuff does when the VR sensor fails but that's ok for my application)
    -Hardware buttons to set it up without a Laptop (can do everything from change the offset trigger angle to program the TPS)
    -Missing tooth need not be set at 90 degrees BTDC, (really just means more flexibility in installing)
    -Has launch control (just a rev hold hard cut for BANG BANG BANG FLAME FLAME FLAME activated by say a clutch switch)
    -Supports flat shift (same idea as the rev hold, keeping the throttle pinned the clutch switch will active the rev hold when changing gears.
    -Bluetooth allows for a digital dash via an Android App, (shows revs, and reports temps from sensors along with advance degrees)
    -Extra Aux output (has dedicated switch to activate say thermo fan, and has an additional switched ground to turn on what ever from any of the sensors. TPS, MAP, RPM, Oil / Water Temp.

    Having said that, opening the software last night there is a commend to import Megajolt ignition maps.. so, well, yeah, the similarities must run pretty deep...

    Anyway, It should work a treat. I paid $350 with a trigger wheel and a VR sensor. from a block out West, that's pretty good.

    Now to decide how I want to mount it, I could;

    -Get some washers and offset the alternator and water pumps, moving them out the width of the trigger plat and attach it behind the front pulley.
    -I could get a larger bolt and attach it to the front of the pulley, or weld it to the pulley I suppose.

    I'll get it up in the air and have a look to see what makes sense.

    Ray, I believe you mounted it behind the pulley and just spaced everything else out last time? Suppose it was easier to mount the sensor without worrying about the belt?
    Last edited by bowie; 12th June 2018 at 12:27 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  15. #1040
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    #Edit, of I see you cut the middle out and welded it to the inside.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-dscn0112.jpg

    Did you end up spacing the pulley at all? and no issues with the VR sensor reading ~60% of the surface area of the trigger wheel? I can't see how you would have managed to get a direct flat line up with the trigger in bedded behind the lip of the pulley.

    Ah! that pulley looks different to mine, mine appears to have a deeper tapper. on it. Ah I'll pull it off and have a look.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  16. #1041
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    "bowie"

    First off either the Gordini pulley sat further out or I made a spacer, about 5-6mm. The trigger wheel was bored out so it sat on the flat of the back of the pulley, and a +- 3mm spacer and locator was made, so you could see the trigger wheel just in the back of the pulley. And then the sensor is mounted at an angle approx to the angle of the inside of the pulley "v". The sensor mount is bolted and located on the timing cover bolts. The trigger wheel is mounted through the pulley.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-dscn0112.jpgMy R12 POS Arrived!-dscn0113.jpgMy R12 POS Arrived!-dscn0107.jpgMy R12 POS Arrived!-dscn0109.jpgMy R12 POS Arrived!-dscn0061.jpg

    807 in A110 was a bit easier.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-dscn0147.jpgMy R12 POS Arrived!-crank-pulley-2.jpg

    Ray
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  17. #1042
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    Bowie, I think you need to use Frans' method and get a bigger trigger wheel made so the teeth project outside the pulley circumference. That way you don't need to complicate your life with fabricating a whole bunch of other bits and pieces to make it a really tight squeeze.

    It's not that hard to make a trigger wheel, and you could do it at home with a protractor, a compass, some geometry, a bit of patience, a drill (even a hand one) and a square file (though the teeth don't really need to be square).

    You might still need to space out the pulley because space on the 12 is bloody tight down there, but only the thickness of the material you use to make the trigger wheel, which can be 1mm thick or so and you can make the spacer (again) by hand from the same material.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  18. #1043
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah that is a lovey solution Ray. And yes that Gordini Pulley makes it easier with it not being nearly as concave as the 12's. I think the simplest solution for me will be to attach a trigger ring to the front of the pulley and as you have done, create a bracket / guard sharing the sump points to hold the sensor. The trigger wheel would be left in a a shit position, but the pacific bash guard on the bottom would cover it (should I put it back on).

    The wheel I ended up with is pretty close to the correct size (slightly larger then the pulley) I'll borrow your beautiful method Ray and drill some holes to mount it, then cut away the rest leaving but a nice ring with teeth on the outside.

    But first, a 30mm socket to get the pulley off
    geckoeng likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  19. #1044
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    "bowie"

    Just remember the pickup sensor and the trigger wheel do not have to be square on, just in the proximity of each other to get the magnetic fields. So my sensor was at an angle to the outer edge of the trigger wheel and about 1.0mm clear off of it. And it picked up good pulse and worked very crisp.

    Keep all your findings on the thread, I have been looking at NODIZ as well, and would like to see how it works. I like the built in EDIS chip, far more up to date. But both the Megajolts have worked very well, So .......

    Ray
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  20. #1045
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    The sensor came with some document warning me about the thickness of trigger and how close the sensor would need to be to read it, perhaps not all sensors are created equal.

    But yes once the pulley comes off I'll have a look. It would be preferable to mount it on the inside, but only if I can point the sensor as you have done. I worry the concave nature of the of the standard pulley might dilute it. I'm encouraged by how the offset worked for you fine however.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  21. #1046
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well I got lucky with this trigger wheel, it is about 1mm larger then the pulley, in that it will be near enough perfect.

    Oh, the pulley came off without a worry... a quick tap and the starter dog / nut was free, then the pulley just fell off the front..

    I see there is a key, steel spacer / seal that sits on the crank (that the pulley is jammed up on) that would nearly be a good position to copy. In that, you could cut the middle out of the trigger wheel and mount / weld onto that.

    My pulley is dished, and I think I will make an aluminum spacer (about 5mm in height) to clear the width of the dish, so the trigger wheel has something to sit flush on, then drill into the spacer / trigger wheel and pulley and nut everything together.

    Having said all that, I may even be able to use small washers since there will be bolts between everything to just clear the gap.. Hmmmm..

    The sensor will be mounted on the hot side sadly, (although having it away from the alternator and it's magnetic field is probably a blessing actually) The best position for the missing tooth will more of less line up with 10 o'clock when looking at the front of the engine. The ECU has room to rove about 10 teeth either way, (100 degrees + / - ) so I'll have to see what suites best as the water pump may be in the road. Perhaps mounting it at roughly 6 o'lock would clear all and keep the wires a little away from the hot side.

    Anyway boring photos of my pulley and how well this bonus wheel matches below.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/wou2HPvPJCcfbAn9A

    #EDIT.
    Album now includes a rough height measurement of spacers to clear the dish in the pulley, it seems 6mm (3 x 2mm spacers stacked) provides a good fit from the surface.

    In an ideal world, I would find an aluminum spacer 6mm high, with an outside diameter of 90mm and an inside of say 70mm and drill and bolt.. but in a Bowie world... Do I dare, simply use these stacked spacers and drill out the middle of the trigger wheel (to 50mm) to clear the starter dog and attach everything together?

    Using the trigger as a template I'm confident it's centered so the worry about mounting it skew if, is somewhat reduced. Then I could go have it balanced I suppose?

    Anyone got a spare pulley they wanna toss me when I ruin this one?

    #EDIT EDIT
    I forgot about this place, http://www.trigger-wheels.com/store/...en-uk/d19.html

    They talk about stacking spacers directly. Maybe I'm not so dodgy. I mean.. It won't earn a Ray "Gecko Engineering" sticker but hay what do I have to loose other then a borked pulley?
    Last edited by bowie; 14th June 2018 at 06:25 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  22. #1047
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Given that your pulley has the flat section below the belt channel, I would weld the wheel to the spacer you found there if it is keyed to the crankshaft and there is enough clearance. That means all you have to do is drill the wheel to appropriate size or if you have an engineering place close by have them bore it. That should give you a neat installation.

    You could also cut the spacer at the right point and insert the wheel in the cut so you have it clearing the back of the pulley (spaced out by the spacer offcut) and perfectly centred on the crankshaft. You would need to open the wheel centre and cut a key in it but you can use your pulley as a pattern (this operation will be a bit delicate and needs precision, but you can use a file, can't you?). You still need an engineering place to cut the spacer for you on a lathe. They will have (or can make) a tool to make sure they get a clean cut exactly the thickness of your wheel material.

    More than one way to skin this cat.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  23. #1048
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    True, that would work too, and dare I say be more elegant then the solutions I'm currently imagining.

    And just for future searchers;

    Renault 810 pulley wheel;
    -140mm / 5.5" in diameter
    -Dished 5mm either side.

    Renault 810 Crank Bolt / Starter Dog;
    -M12 thread
    -30mm shaft total length, with 25mm of thread
    -Bolt head 30mm diameter, and 11mm high.

    If mounting a trigger wheel directly to the face, 15mm M4/6's will work from the trigger wheel, into the pulley leaving 4mm on the back after a 2mm washer has been used. (pulley is 13mm at the thickest part, most trigger wheels are 3mm thick)
    Last edited by bowie; 14th June 2018 at 08:53 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  24. #1049
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I don't want to step on toes or have a competition between me and Ray but just my worth. I realise that depending on the selection of tools you have there will be plenty of ways to do the job. The way I see it is as follows.

    My toothed wheel was drawn on a PC by the guy at the water cutting shop for $20.00 and water cut them for less because I had two or three done. A couple of years later Ross had his done when I built the 16TS engine for very little because the guy had the drawing already in the data base.

    He cuts it from 2mm mildsteel sheet the size you want and then you weld it to the pulley outer edge on the inside where everything else fits better, balance it like I found out the hard way (see "2 new race cars in NZ) as you should in any case and it is all done and very light.

    I don't have detail photos here at work but have a look at these that I do have for your information and maybe an alternative if you do get stuck.







    The first pic is from my car and the other 2 from Ross's 807. I do have detail pics at home.

    Regards, Frans.
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    Young enough to do it anyway.

  25. #1050
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Frans,
    No standing on toes, we all have different ideas and needs, and a variety of ideas will spark an idea in somebody else's head for something they can do.

    Ray
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    Ray geckoeng

    Think Old, But Run Modern !!

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