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Thread: My R12 POS Arrived!

  1. #1001
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well that wasn't so difficult (bolts to come, of course I bought the wrong length)

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180430_174425235.jpg

    And just before you rip me a new one, no, those other holes where already in the L brackets from previous cars these things sat in no doubt.

    Turns out the early R12 seat rail is a good bit of thing!

    For those that weren't playing at home, the later model seat rail (S2 and Virages) have a tabbed mounting procedure where the seat bolts to L shaped arms welded on to the rail. The early one doesn't worry with any of that so adapting it was very easy.

    I just enlarged slightly, the standard seat mounting positions from 6mm to 8mm..

    My R12 POS Arrived!-stock-rail.jpg

    .. then measure, cut and drill some aluminum box section to length (used 30x15x2mm kinda as a template, I must check the cams regs to see if that was ok, if so fine, if not, I'll find some steel box section and do it again?) in which to mount over the original R12 seat mount points mentioned above. From there it was just a matter of measuring the narrower distance required for the seat mounts and Viola!

    The original seat will attach no worries and it will just be a matter now of swapping in and out the racing seat with that box section frame, when I get to the track. And of course Woo Hoo, the thing is on rails.

    Oh and of course, high tensile M8's used everywhere whilst it continues to use the standard rail mount points in the floor.

    It's a start.


    #Edit, But whilst I have you hear, re Cams, See Items G and H.

    http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Gener...20C-2018-1.pdf

    I read this as;

    -if you are using the original rail / seat mounting points fine (does this concern itself with where the seat mounts the rail?, or is it just talking about the floor locations?)
    -If directly to the floor, 3mm steel, or 5mm aluminum (min 40cm2)
    -If making a cross remember off the floor, square tube of 35mm with a wall of 2.5mm, with welded M8 inserts.

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    So what about aftermarket rails? do they have to have cross members as mentioned above? or can they bolt directly as you would the floor (3mm steel, 5mm aluminum)

    So I need to change this.
    Last edited by bowie; 30th April 2018 at 06:42 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  2. #1002
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    #EDIT #EDIT.

    I suppose I can use the rails at the moment to get a measure of where it's comfortable, then just mark and drill some holes in the floor and mount it directly (assuming it will line up before the floor starts to decline away to the rear).

    Suppose that's just as good.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  3. #1003
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well that's not going to work. The rear of the floor drops away where I'd want to put a couple of bolt. I'll need some kind of cross member like this, or super large bracket to reach it.

    The width of the mounting points are 530mm, whilst the seat is 345mm, thus I'm making up about 92mm each side. I suppose a 6mm plate with a right angle in it. say 100mm x 50mm x 6mm (150mm total length) would be strong enough to suppose the 92mm offset?

    Decisions decisions.

    Click for braaaaap
    Click for sketchy

    It feels stiff enough sitting in. Perhaps I'll swap that aluminum square section for steel?

    Oh for what it's worth, it doesn't feel that stupid sitting in it. Controls are still fine. even the steering is alright but I'm fairly tall. I can still see the front corners of the car from the drivers seat. I'll just need to tweek it over to the left about 10mm and it will be sweet.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  4. #1004
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well, bolted in and done. Feels pretty stiff, I still feel it might be worth now turning this template into steel.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZKoBe2XPsDkGDwm6A

    I'll do some more investigation before I commit, I have seen folks use entire sections of 3mm to make a false floor, mounting that to the original mounting points, of to which then bolt the seat on to. Anyway more research.

    Of of course I cleaned the rail before putting it back in, now it moves like crap. That'll teach me.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  5. #1005
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Anyway I think I'll do this.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-ke.jpeg

    So the green dots are the factory mounting points (which are just 6mm screws for what it's worth). The red pieces running left to right are say, 30x15x2mm Aluminum box section, and the blue pieces are again 30x15x2mm box section, and are arranged to be as wide as the seats L Bracket mounts (drilled spots for it to attach indicated by the black dots) Thus.. I will have heaps of room to move the chair forward, back as much as I want.

    The benefit of this is also perhaps I can tweak the placement left and right as well if I so dare.

    Anyway. As this is "bolted to the floor" cams manual says it should be at least 5mm aluminum plate with a surface area of 40mm2. I think those long runners would satisfy that requirement? If not. there is no reason why this couldn't be steel, which might be preferable by the time I start drilling holes anyway.

    At the end of all that, the seat would only be 30mm of the ground too.

    Perhaps this is better?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  6. #1006
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    Have a look at these ones made by my friend Rob at Maximum Motorsport...about the best mounts in the business.

    https://shop.maximummotorsport.com.au/shop/seat-mounts/
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  7. #1007
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Now that is a nice rail.

    And also answers my concern about a rail on a rail as they have done as much on one end too.

    Goooooood

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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  8. #1008
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    I know I'm really boring and a wet blanket when it comes to some modifications, but I really think you would be better off investing in a set of decent racing seat mounts rather than square section tube. Just in case things go pear shaped.
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  9. #1009
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well that's just it. Because the standard seat rails are so far apart, and because of all that glorious rear leg room I'm going to have to create something for the rear section of the seat support at least. Be that thick wall square section, or 6+mm square plate, perhaps a 6mm square false floor, or even, as cams recommend, weld a proper box section welded between the rails from either side and go from there.

    So many things to experiment with

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  10. #1010
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    It's an afternoon Renault fun fact!

    The width of the early seat rail, actually matches the diameter of the chair, they are not offset the slightest.

    Ie if you want to, you can reuse the front mounts, drill some for the rear, and mount your chair directly to the floor sans rail
    This ends your afternoon Renault fun fact

    #Edit, Anyway after way to much internet searching I have actually found some L brackets that will keep Cams Schedule C happy, will reach across the slopping rear section, will not foul the brakes lines underneath, are long enough to provide decent forward backward adjust-ability, and importantly 160mm high which will give me plenty of scope to get high enough. Sorted.
    Last edited by bowie; 6th May 2018 at 11:16 AM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  11. #1011
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Anyway enough about boring seats. Lets talk about brakes. Time to look at that twin circuit master cylinder as no Supersprint will be without one!

    Not taking the master apart just yet, I figure I'll get some hose, sit it on the vice and pump fluid through it to see if it's working as it should. I think I've watched enough tutorials to expect some decent flows out of the outlets, if not, then we can get serious.

    Behold! a cylinder that has performed more movements then a 18yr old at a blue light disco! Funky.
    My R12 POS Arrived!-master-side.jpg

    Which brings me to the Pressure drop indicator. What a clever bit of kit.

    It seems two inputs (front and back of the master of course) and three outputs, (2 x front, 1 x rear, der Bowie) The device is connected by by a metal rod that when the pressure is equal it sits happy in the middle, when either systems get's grumpy its falls one way and BAM! (Ed. I think Simon did explain as much a few posts ago...)

    Anyway it seems that if the system was leaking out of the back into the booster, this system would measure this, along with it leaking out of all the usual spots, a wheel cylinder, caliper, or within the switch itself. Handy.

    Now when separating the cylinder from the booster it was pretty dry, so hopefully the start of future good news.

    Now my copy of the "InterEurope Workshop Manual" tells me it's not serviceable, I wonder what tolerance act on the pin to keep it, well steady and how much pressure it may need to push it?

    The Pressure drop valve in all it's glory!
    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180513_123837244.jpg

    Also interestingly, this manual describes the "US Spec" master cylinder (the one we are used to talking about) mounted without a booster. I'm still deciding if I need the booster or not, I suppose I can test it either way and find out.

    But back to the Booster.

    The cover that I assumed was just a mounting plate, I note there is a bunch of grease positioned as if to seal it? Why does the back need to be sealed?

    My R12 POS Arrived!-booster-cover.jpg
    My R12 POS Arrived!-booster-sans-cover.jpg

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  12. #1012
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    There are two dual circuit master cylinders. One for the R1170 (which was sans booster) and one for the R1177 (with booster) The pistons are different between them, as well as different brake pedal pushrods for the with/without booster setup.

    The booster fitted to the R1177 is a nice booster, not sharp like an old HQ/J/X/Z Holden. The R1170 setup works well too. Given you have a booster setup, you may as well as fit the whole system. But I'd get the master cylinder reconditioned, if you don't know how long the system has been open, when it was last rebuilt, and when the last fluid change was made. Without that, the first time you bleed the brakes, chances are the piston seals will be pushed through the usually unused and likely grubby portion of the master cylinder at the end of the pedal travel. Rendering the seals useless, and frustrating you when the brakes don't bleed.
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  13. #1013
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    I rebuilt mine myself back in the day; it looked identical to yours. I just used a hone in a drill and then carborundum paper on the hone to smooth the bore to a very slight cross hatch, and then whacked in a kit.

    The only issue is if there are pits in the bore too deep to remove without making the bore too large.


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  14. #1014
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    You can get the whole thing (master cylinder and pressure valve) rebuilt with stainless sleeves, which would outlast the car. Just make sure it's a good shop and they line up the holes in the cylinder/valve body with those in the sleeve correctly.
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  15. #1015
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Yes I see "powerbrakes" in SA do a lot of this. From what I can gather a new cylinder from O/S is still perhaps cheaper.

    Anyway I'm getting the overwhelming vibe from you all that it's worth opening it up and freshening up either way. Given that rebuilt kits are hovering around the $50 mark (once delivered), and new cylinders are $100, perhaps the peace of mind of a new cylinder is justified.

    Also this store in Estonia is pretty good.

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    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  16. #1016
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Bowie,

    I've been down both routes. I sent an M/C to power brakes for re-sleeving on the rally R10 back around 2013/4; and bought a brand new one from mecaparts for the green R8 in 2012.

    The latter failed after around 2-3 years and got pulled out. As I was stripping the white R10 at the time, the rebuilt one got taken out and put into the green car where it is still going strong over a year later.

    Your choice..........
    KB


  17. #1017
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah. yes that is a consideration isn't it.

    Cheers!

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  18. #1018
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    Just get what you've got rebuilt, it looks like it's had a quick blow job of gold over the original grey. So if you are lucky, it may have already been re-sleeved and it would just need a kit.

    Even if it needs sleeving, and even if it comes out pricier, I'd still have more confidence in it than a modern pirate part, plain wrapper, repro with unknown internals.
    Shoji likes this.
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  19. #1019
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    If you can get a new master, I'd do that for sure. Not NOS though - too old.

    It save any worries about whether the rebuild is done well. Most are fine, but I've heard of issues with stainless sleeves having sharp edges on the inner holes and suchlike.

    Edit: Hmmm, I didn't read KB's post. That's not a good sign of the current state of new parts. Ignore me.


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  20. #1020
    Fellow Frogger! Shoji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post


    Photo of King springs for the rear of my 12G replica next to an R17G spring. Might have some more data in the shed.
    Data would be good Sunroof. What did you use in the front?
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  21. #1021
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Success

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/E606PDfk8F2NU7jN2

    The head is done, well it's done at least until everything else is organized. Well.. still have to clean up the valve guide seats, but otherwise I shalt need to reach for the dremal.

    There is actually a lot of scope to increase the inlet runner size here. there is heaps of meat in the floor to take away, and once you smooth out the sides where the push-rods interject, well it could become quite a cabin.

    I've had to control myself as it looks like I'm keeping the stock intake valve (33.35mm) thus limiting how large I'd want the runner to be. In the case of this, i took 2mm out of most of it. The real test will be with some calipers to measure further in the neck. Perhaps there is some material to come out again.

    I tell you though. The exhaust gas has a way to go. a tight exit from the valve before it opens up. Hmmmmm.

    Also. Gone and been silly I have.

    https://youtu.be/zvgZ9xPBb20?t=10s

    Yep.

    I went and found a bank of Kawazaki ZZR1100 carbs. They are a Keihin CVK40's. 40mm's throttle bodies, 38mm~ Venturi's (a little to big, will need a 8k redline to make them work now, but at $150 'ave a go I said.

    They look like this;

    My R12 POS Arrived!-417d4b8s-960.jpg

    They measure 99mm in overall width, meaning I have 180mm left to play with in effort to make a mount and cover the ends with filters. They reportedly work ok with stock pumps. if not a regulator will sort them out. Anyway, future future future. But heck talk about cheap throttle bodies. oh they each flow 160cfm bam.

    I ended up hear as I was looking at purchasing a choke assembly for the 36/32 webber I have. There wasn't much change either way so here I am. Either case I'll have to test them both to see how they feel. Fun times ahead.
    Last edited by bowie; 26th May 2018 at 11:11 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  22. #1022
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    Brake point in coffs harbour also do ss sleeving i've had a few done by them over the years and never had a problem.
    bowie likes this.
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  23. #1023
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    It's not going to be that bad by the time an inlet runner is introduced. My back of the napkin measurements where pretty close

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180601_192700121_ll.jpg

    by the time I tilt the carbs up to the recommended 30 degrees (as it's unlikely this thing is going to spend to much time on the back wheel) it will clear the exhaust manifold ok. I'll have to measure under the bonnet and have a look.. it might be ok.

    Maad.

    Oh. These things are light. I'll get the scales out later. I wouldn't be surprised if the 4 of these come up lighter then the DGV 32/36
    ReidarUF likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  24. #1024
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    BMC made a works Cooper S with quad Amal bike carbs and an eight port head. For inspiration...

    My R12 POS Arrived!-cooper-amals.jpg


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  25. #1025
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    BMC made a works Cooper S with quad Amal bike carbs and an eight port head. For inspiration...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cooper with Amals.jpg 
Views:	48 
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ID:	106394
    That's interesting. I remember skinning my knuckles getting a side draft Webber off a mates Cooper S and it was definitely on the firewall side of the engine as the air filter was on the other side of the firewall, in the passenger compartment, hot little number it was too.
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