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Thread: My R12 POS Arrived!

  1. #901
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    If you are going to buy an ECU buy a real one, I'd avoid things like megajolts due to the other parts required and the lack of flexibility. You can get a new adaptronic for under $1000. If you don't want the newer version the less flexible old version can be found second hand for a reasonable price.

    What if you want to add injection at a later time. Or when I finally start the K4M revolution.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Whether you're wrong or I'm wrong, I don't know. However, I feel I have to step in here and defend the MegaJolt. You talk about it as if it is a toy. I would like to mention that it will cost under US$230 for the unit and then the accessories available at PickAPart or Aussie equivalent for about AU$150 max. I think this "other parts" you mention is actually a plus point because they will be easily available for years to come. I can point to nearly 10 MegaJolts used on AF alone with some of them running since 2009 and dare those guys to say a bad word about it. The fuel injection part on a Sierra motor? That I can't see will be soon, but I admit that the MegaJolt don't do FI.

    I can't speak for the Adaptronic because I don't have experience on it.

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    Young enough to do it anyway.

  2. #902
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Fellow AF'er hooked me up, they are NOS. I was lucky.

    C.Less, yes I'm still swinging between the two... gah I'll cross that when I'm ready. The K4 revolution will be mighty.
    Fixed it for you.
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    My main issue with things like the megajolt and megasquirt ECUs is finding someone to tune them for a legal modern engined street vehicle. If it's an old pre ADR engine or a race car then you can use anything you want. This use to be the case anyway, haven't checked for a while.

    And I'm probably biased for no particular reason, after all I'm an electronics engineer who doesn't like audrinos.


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  4. #904
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I have a Megajolt as well, it is to go in my 205GTI. That, just like bowie's 12 is an old car, with standard engine so not a difficult curve to replicate. Ironically, I went with the megajolt because I too couldn't find anyone to tune a more sophisticated ignition. The Megajolt is simple and easy as long as you have a Win computer. I also think the device is pretty robust and the fact it relies on the Ford EDIS module is a mixed blessing. The module is very easy to find. Everywhere apart from Australia, it seems. I got my EDIS off ebay US, state unkown and when it arrived, I checked it and it turned out to be in very good shape. I took the risk just because I am cheap (I think it cost me like 10US$ from some random dude who wrecked a car). Most proper Megajolt sellers offer the module as well as part of various packages they sell.

    The sensor can be almost anything. I tested a number of random sensors I had lying about (some I don't even know what cars they come from) on my bench rig and they all worked, some even as far as 3cm away from the trigger wheel! I settled on an original Peugeot (205Si) item.

    The only shortcoming is that the Megajolt only reads 36-1 trigger wheels. It would have been an advantage to me if it did 60-2 as well (as some others do) because I could have used a Peugeot flywheel to trigger it, thus avoiding a trigger wheel on the front engine pulley. It would have been a neater installation, but not a big issue in the end (I have binned the AC on my car so I machined the front pulley AC belt section into a trigger wheel - very nice but a bit exposed in my opinion because it sits low down and given the pulley is very brittle I expect a stone or something could take out teeth). For Bowie this is not a problem, he can come up with whatever setup he wants given that his car doesn't have any factory electronic ignition.

    Anyhoo. Not a fanboy, but I would say the Megajolt is good value for money and very well made and thought out. Not a toy by any stretch of imagination.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  5. #905
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well that's it isn't it. If your car has some elec wizardry on it perhaps there is an argument to find what something this is applicable.

    The future spare parts bin with the ford stuff was the attraction. Seems simple enough and there is quite a community of passionate wierdo's like us whom are keen on assisting with the DIY Mega* stuff.

    There is some wisdom in future proofing oneself.. Anyway. Let talk about brakes again!

    I was just thinking, this 17 booster and cylinder I have, It occurred to me that I don't currently have a booster on the single circuit system I have.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180103_185457489.jpg

    Given that I don't find the brakes to heavy, (I actually prefer them to the brakes in the Volvo that are so light the feel is pretty crap. Thankfully they squeek heaps so I can use that to assist) would it be that silly to ditch the booster and just attach the cylinder?

    Without getting to close and personal the bolt pattern appears to be pretty close. Oh the 17 booster and Cylinder.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20180103_190510695.jpg

    Now that square on with the sensor coming out of it. Is that just there to measure the fluid level? Thinking about it I don't suppose I have a warning light for brake fluid at the moment... wait I'd have to. Gah I'll go have another look.

    Anyway, if I remove that contraption, I reckon there would be enough give in the standard hard lines to attach them right up.

    Lastly if that is not advisable, instead of making new hard lines, what about small lengths of stainless line as required to go from the 17 cylinder to the existing hard lines?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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  6. #906
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Wait a second! how will I active the cylinder without the boosters connections for the peddle!

    :S

    Hope and dreams I suppose. Unless the existing actuator for the early cylinder lines up :S I best get my spanners out and have a look.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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  7. #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Lastly if that is not advisable, instead of making new hard lines, what about small lengths of stainless line as required to go from the 17 cylinder to the existing hard lines?
    Firstly, I think do yourself a favour and grab some documentation presently being sold by Alpinesau in the for sale section. If you don't have a Haynes 15/17 manual, grab that, also the Renault 15 parts catalogue (to show how all the 15/17 brake stuff fits in), then also the Renault 12 Amendment No 4 (this includes the Renault 12 tandem master cylinder - the Autobooks manual may be useful for something......) - all the info is all knowledge.

    Then elaborate on the weird stainless steel brake line thing, you are messing with brakes, and what you are suggesting sounds like a bad idea. Given you are going from a single circuit to dual circuit, you will likely need at least new front lines.

    Given you are going to bigger brakes, and potentially harder pads, I'd suggest keeping the booster. The Renault boosters of that era are pretty good. The sensor with the wire on the side is the pressure drop indicator valve - don't remove it. A shuttle valve senses the pressure in the front and rear systems. If the pressure is incorrect between either system, indicative of a potential leak, the valve connects, illuminating a warning light on the dashboard - and with that particular fluid reservoir there is no low fluid level indication.
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  8. #908
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    My worth:

    On top of what Simon has said.

    I would be installing the R17 booster/master cylinder as it is (after you have replaced the seals in it because they are most likely knackered)

    Getting the brake lines from mid 70's R12 and use them, failing being able to get some go to a brake shop and get them to make some up.

    The other thing you will need to do is drill and tap a vacuum take off point in the inlet manifold.

    Even with a booster the brakes on the R12/15/17 are not over boosted and still give reasonable feel.
    Regards Col

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  9. #909
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    Actually I would go further and say the boosted R12/17 brakes are some of the best in feel.

    Don't overcomplicate your life for no gain.

    Plonk that boosted twin circuit MC and front R17 brakes in and enjoy. It is tried and tested, it works brilliantly with plenty of feel and progressive firm brakes and with front R17 discs you won't need to upgrade your brakes until your car will push 200HP or so.

    There are two take up points for vacuum in the inlet manifold that are not used so no need to drill anything. Just get the damn thing on and going already.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 4th January 2018 at 02:23 AM.
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  10. #910
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    See I thought I was under-conplicating it, but oh alright. I was just getting excited I was. Indeed as it looks like I could just swap the master clyinders over, well I could manage that job myself before tea.

    But having some kind of measument in regards to the pressure differences in the front and rear chamber is a good thing. I'll do it properly and get proper hard lines to suit.

    Thank you everyone.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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  11. #911
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The existing lines in your car fit straight in.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  12. #912
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    The fittings are correct, but the orientation is all wrong and they are about 4" to short. The 15/17 cylinder requires them to terminate on the right hand side whilst they currently terminate across from each other.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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  13. #913
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Gah! A bunch of reading supplemented with youtube mechanics and a brief chat with my dad, what was I all worried about?

    I was really getting worried about making brake lines with fancy pipe benders and $$ fittings. The moment of TADA! came with the ol' man mentioning they used to fill crappy lines with salt to assist with the shaping. Not that I'll need to, but a handy crutch if I get scared. And line isn't that dear, and there actually may be enough give in the existing hard line after all (schlitzaugen wins again), and I can probably shape it on the bench with a decent size socket.

    Anyway, I'll do everything at once since there will be a bunch of bleeding no doubt, that is with the larger rear drums.

    In the meantime I'm going on a holiday to NZ! The partner and I have had a rare moment where our work schedules are kind to us

    We are heading down the west cost of the south Island, spending most of our time near enough Te Anau in effort to check out Milford, the Fiordland Nat park, and we'll do some stuff in Queenstown I'm sure.

    I was disappointed to see there is nothing scheduled at race track near Cromwell. There are a few wineries on the road out of Queenstown, we might have just accidentally ended up there if something was going on

    As usual, I'll wave vigorously if I see anything with a blue diamond around the place

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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  14. #914
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    You can shape brake lines by hand, no need for special tools, you tool. Just line everything up and try to put some gentle curves to get the lines where you need them.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #915
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    It's only tight curves you need a proper tool for, that and the flares on the ends. Also copper tube is no longer legal as far as I know if that's what you were considering

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  16. #916
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    And yes to all those things. well now I know..

    And It's good to make yourself look like an idiot before you proceed however no? Chaps are then surprisingly impressed you managed to do just about anything, find a the shift key, get dressed in the morning, drink a cup of tea. It's all up from here.

    but bye again, packing.

    (but really thanks for putting up with me everyone)
    Last edited by bowie; 5th January 2018 at 05:26 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  17. #917
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    True steel brake lines are a pain and did require proper equipment to get bends looking nice. My steel lines on my trailer lasted 8 years and were rusted out. Gosh gee my copper lines on my old cars are still working 40 and 50 years later. But the last lines I made to replace the rusted out steel ones on the trailer were a sort of composite material called kunfer which is copper alloy. Copper is only banned in a few countries good old Oz being one. But kunfer is ok. The theory was proposed by the steel industry and backed by manufaturers that copper could burst or swell under pressure. Car manufactures liked steel because it was cheaper. But rusted so quickly that busted steel was more likely than copper. So we are back to copper again. But not as it was originally made out of pure copper. Steel lines required a special tool to form ends and copper can be formed using a cheap tool from Supercheap etc.

  18. #918
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    Kunifer is the stuff. Copper lines fell out of favour due to fatigue issues if the lines suffered from vibration (resulting in the bursting/swelling under pressure.
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  19. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    used to fill crappy lines with salt to assist with the shaping.
    This may work OK with copper water pipes, but don't try it with brake line, hygroscopic moisture, oxygen, and steel components will oxidise even more nicely with added salt. :-)

    Also, I've forgotten more than I remember about Renault 12s. However I don't think (happy to be corrected) there will be enough stretch in the rear brake line to reach the "nose" of the dual circuit master cylinder with the booster in place, and even then, the thread on the rear line union is smaller than that on the master cylinder. So at least you will need to replace and re-flair the rear line if it is lucky enough to "stretch".
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  20. #920
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Welcome home me.

    I was distracted with sway bars once again so I decided do to some math to get an idea of the what the different thickness bars will do to my 12.

    First, some tables;

    FRONT SWAY BARS
    17mm 21mm 24mm 23mm~ Double
    - 2 x Stiff 4 x Stiff 3 x Stiff

    REAR SWAY BARS
    14mm 17mm 24mm 19mm~ Double
    - 2 x Stiff 8 x Stiff 3 x Stiff

    For those that are interested, there are some other numbers involved before we got to that rough measurement of "stiffness". Basically mm ^4, then divided from the initial setting to get a % increase in stiffness.

    The reference to the "double" is the effect if I was to picky back both the sway bars I have in each position. In the case of the front, a 17mm and a 21mm and the rear, a 14mm and a 17mm bar.

    Anyway, It is interesting to note the dramatic increase in stiffness to the rear from a Gordini width sway bar, and at a quick glace, that 15/17's had sway bars 2x as stiff as the 12.

    I'll start by mounting the 2x as stiff sway bars and go from there. It does look pretty straight forward if one wanted to "double up" both front and rear bars. Perhaps one would have to cut the mounting points of the front bsr.. but I suspect there would be enough thread on the vertical stabiliser mount to attach them both honestly.

    And with all that, I suppose the "Gordini" spring rates where still relatively soft compared to modern things given they had such large sway bars for a small car, and that bar stiffness contributes to the overall effect.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  21. #921
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    Welcome home Bowie! A bit of knowledge well received, thanks Bowie. I'm trying to fix my sway bar issue's as we speak.
    I can tell you that when I had a 17 in the early 90's I was quite surprised about the cornering and I pushed it. I raced it around a road below Mount Wellington near Hobart with many bends and curves. Loved it, it held and felt very confident. So I pushed it hard. I always thought these 17's were designed and set up very well with suspension for rally. Did I say I pushed it. And I still remember how good it was so I drive the same today. Love it. Can't wait for the extra power to push it harder
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

  22. #922
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I think I might start a google doc spreedsheet with all these bushing I'm fining that fit the ol' 12 to allow peeps to order neatly online.

    So you are looking to find bushings and brackets to fit a 21mm sway bar on the front of your 12/15/17.

    Nolathane
    42931 - A 65mm bracket that will hold the bush and bolt on to the original mount
    42921G - 21mm bushing to suit bracket above current catalogue stuff and part of their "grease free" range.

    I paid $45 for the set, they were in stock, happy days.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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  23. #923
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    ADD?
    I gave you and John the Super Pro part numbers for all the bushings you need to do the entire car, no need to change brackets and such. As far as I can tell they're the same material as Nolathane but a different colour.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  24. #924
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    .... I must have missed that thread..

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  25. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    I think I might start a google doc spreedsheet with all these bushing I'm fining that fit the ol' 12 to allow peeps to order neatly online.

    So you are looking to find bushings and brackets to fit a 21mm sway bar on the front of your 12/15/17.

    Nolathane
    42931 - A 65mm bracket that will hold the bush and bolt on to the original mount
    42921G - 21mm bushing to suit bracket above current catalogue stuff and part of their "grease free" range.

    I paid $45 for the set, they were in stock, happy days.
    Hmm. Worth a crack as I'm still having trouble, even with the refurbished rubber one's.
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.” Cheers. John

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