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Thread: My R12 POS Arrived!

  1. #726
    Fellow Frogger! Shoji's Avatar
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    Is the colostomy bag/catch can in the wrong place Bowie?

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    Cheers. John
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.”

  2. #727
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Very true Col.

    I'm sure in a week I will see some weeping from there no doubt. The 504 used to drip from there too. This is the bush that I need to replace with the cover don't I. In that then covers are usual pitted and crap by now too aren't they.

    Gah so many things to paint!

    My R12 POS Arrived!-clean.jpg

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

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  3. #728
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Nah catch can is up above the block, pretty much in the position where the windscreen washer container sits. That has been relocated to the other side of the strut tower.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  4. #729
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Serves you right for doing a half arsed job, you lousy so-and-so son of a dorongo.

    I am with Col and raise you the main rear seal.

    If you want to check the sump plug leave the guard off, clean everything underneath and don't drive the car for a couple of days. If you still find a drop of oil on the sump plug after that, you were right. My money sez you won't. Even if you use a knackered copper washer it is easy enough to crush it a bit more (don't go gorilla on it) and any leak will stop.

    That is not so easy with the front and the rear seals. Like I told you some time ago, your cranskhaft flange and your front pulley would both be grooved by now and even replacing the seals won't completely eliminate the leaks. I offered you my front pulley, remember? And Col, that one does not leak, I can guarantee. Mainly because it was brand new when I got the car and it has done less than 100k km.

    There is another way to stop those leaks, but it involves you moving the seal further out or in so the seal lip runs on a clean section of the respective shaft/flange. This will of course create another groove in time, but it will take some time until then.

    There are also slim profile seals you can use (make sure at least the rear main is Viton, or else!) and those will achieve the same result by running on a different section of the shaft/s. If you resort to any of these options, make sure you polish off the raised edge of the groove before installing the seals, otherwise you'll kill the new seals on installation straight away, I promise you. That raised edge is razor sharp and it will take the delicate seal lip tip clean off.

    Short of luck finding slim seals (try bearing places), I use thin spacers cut out of fibreglass PCB, but that is a nasty bit of backyardery faffnunggengineering. I have a few rings cut already for the 807 engine, 205GTI engine, and BMW M10 engine but not for the 810, sorry.

    You could of course buy the engine in my 12 GL, did I mention that?
    bowie likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  5. #730
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Nah she'll be right. it passed in VIC, as long as I don't show up again with a quart of oil splashed around the place it'll pass ok

    Or will it..



    Oh I opened your package this afternoon. your exhaust manifold is drying in the sun, and many thanks for those Jets!

    Thanks for that detail re the shims / seals etc. It will be sitting for a bit now so I'll be able to check where oil is coming from and go from there.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  6. #731
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think it will pass, especially if you wash it with a pressure washer and tow truck it to the inspection.

    But I know how annoying it is to have an oily engine. That said, the driveshaft leaks inherent to your car will never be cured.

    Run a tap through those stud holes and use plenty of nickel or silver grease on the studs going in the exhaust manifold and bronze or copper nuts, you will be happy you did when you take things apart in the future. Don't do things up gorilla style either. If you have leaks with gentle torque on the nuts you have a problem that won't be solved by force.

    Oil doesn't leak through the seals when the engine doesn't spin, (save for shortly after you used the car) so a standstill check will only verify the plug. If that is the lowest point you might have leaks collecting there and then dripping off, so clean the sump well right after the engine stops.

    After I rebuilt my 205GTI engine, the sump is dry as a bone and clean as the day I put it on, so it is possible. Now I have a leak at the gearbox speedo cable flange that is annoying the bejesus out of me. Bloody frenchies used a non standard o ring thickness to seal, and of course you can't find it anywhere and the old ones are hard and distorted.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 27th September 2017 at 05:35 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #732
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Col / Schlitzaugen win on recount.

    That plug be holding true and steady captain, and how nice is a clean looking washer.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-pluged.jpg

    Looking forward to cranking it at a sociable hour (it's tea time) to watch it spit from the front and back

    I wonder if I have a bit of paper big enough

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  8. #733
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The plug very rarely leaks, bowie, probably only if you catch some crud in between the washer and the sump or some such.

    No need to wait. Take it out on a drive around the block (say about 15-20 minutes) and if it leaks at the oil seals, you'll see it.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  9. #734
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    You may need to undo the sump plug and see if it leaks ; 0
    Just have a big bit of paper ready underneath.
    KB


  10. #735
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well, It's been making cool noises in the backyard for half an hour as I make my tea. *headphones recommend*

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T22xUo25olc

    I could nearly dance to that.



    Yeah feeeeling it, feeeeeeeeeling it.

    Little bit of colour from the back of the sump plug and nothing from the front pulley. HOWEVER! it is on car stands and leaning the wrong way.

    Anyway It's getting a drive tomorrow (have to get ready for band practice, Eb Tuba's Represent!) but looks like it will be fine.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  11. #736
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Mick the master farter, eat your heart out!
    KB


  12. #737
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    How fun is looking for oil drips! It's like a Ms Marbles murder adventure.

    Well it's looking more and more like I should just do this properly once, and take the engine out, paint the bay / under side of the chassis / repair all the seals / rubbers, then go about destroying it. But then the mantra, KISS appears and I'm bought back to reality with what is a POS 12.

    After 60mins of dancing in the yard by itself last night, I came back in the morning to find the slightest trail here on this nut, that then ran down the length of the gearbox housing. I suppose this is the prior reference to the rear engine seal which would more or less be directly above?

    My R12 POS Arrived!-seal.jpg

    I confess I didn't penetrate up between the bell housing and the block the other day, it could still be residue from "rocker-gate 2017" but unlikely given the location, age, milage etc etc.

    I'm going to clean it, keep an eye on it, and then pretend it's not there, until it is time for the engine to come out..

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  13. #738
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well she had her 20km drive down the m4 sitting near enough at 4000rpm for 15mins and I have just a slight leak out of the sump plug, tighten it up, Fixed.

    I'll borrow the hoist here at work and throw it up after all the cars hace crashed, and or gone home with a torch just to double check everything whilst I'm feeling keen.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
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  14. #739
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Yeah ok.. it's leaking a little our of the rear main seal.

    Is this?

    -Engine out
    -Clutch / Flywheel off
    -replace seal?

    Or is it put in place when the crank is installed?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  15. #740
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Yeah ok.. it's leaking a little our of the rear main seal.

    Is this?

    -Engine out
    -Clutch / Flywheel off
    -replace seal?

    Or is it put in place when the crank is installed?
    That is pretty much it.

    You probably will find a wear ring around where the seal runs, may be a lot of work for not a guaranteed fix.

    What are your long term plans for the car? are you keeping the 1289cc engine or will you upgrade it to a R15TS/R17TL engine or even maybe an R5 Alpine engine.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
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  16. #741
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Thanks Col and ok. I'll just clean the area monthly as necessary.

    Haven't really decided what to do re engines long term. Well no, long term, It will end up with a clio K4M (If the r12 survives that long) In the short to medium term (this could be multiple years) I'm looking forward to tinkering with the 810

    I have most of the "faster" virage stuff now to attach, (Webber & manifolds) which should allow me to fuel it correctly as I want to play with a silly cam with lots of lift and overlap. Lets say, short to medium term (couple of years), 90hp @ 7000rpm, expecting it to only make power from 4000-7000rpm, and only maybe 1/2 as much power as I want

    I'll add front and rear engine seals to the list if the engine ever needs to come out.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  17. #742
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    No point doing the rear main alone, bowie. Just live with it leaking. Maybe change it when you do the clutch (and when you do, inspect the g'box input shaft seal as well).

    For a good repair on a worn crankshaft, get a low profile main seal (you have time to look around). Just make sure it's Viton, like I said.

    But before you decide it is the rear main, just in the interest of making sure this horse is dead, sniff the oil a bit to see if it's not g'box oil (it can leak at the input shaft). Low chance, but like I said, make sure this horse is dead.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  18. #743
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah that's a good thought, it was a little darker then I thought it should have been. (Gearbox oil well overdue) do da do da do.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  19. #744
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    'box oil has a very specific smell and it doesn't really turn black, like ever. I would say black means engine, but it's not impossible a leak from the g'box would be masked by a heavier leak from the engine.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #745
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    So look what came in the mail.



    Pitty they weren't for me. With what is in front of me, I could probably by 15 Renault 12's if I looked hard enough.

    Still, never seen some MCA Gold's In the flesh before. I wonder if I could just borrow them overnight to take some measurements...

    The 12 has been sitting for a fortnight as I verify its not dropping oil. Below is the rag collected around the sump plug from the oil it dropped.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-1507707828183.jpg

    Presentable.

    I may even leave the bash tray off when I take it in for rego so they can clearly see it's only really not really dropping oil from that rear seal.

    The front seal is bone dry. Noice.

    Busy with world time attack now, next week I may have time for rego mk4.

    #fail.

    Now to dream about coil overs. There was someone that fitted a set once? Into a Feew-Goo maybe? What did they do about the strut top? Fit another plate under it to act as reinforcement?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  21. #746
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well that wasn't that bad.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20171017_144223654.jpg

    #Protip. put the dam thing in a vice next time

    But I'm happy to see they came apart easily as you all said they would. I didn't even seem to damage the control arm. For what it's worth (for future Bowies, "Ed. God forbid") 100mm M8 bolts did the trick with more then enough thread to control easily.

    These bearings are like pepper grinders, suppose I best go get me a bearing puller now.

    The arrangement actually is not to dissimilar to a familiar pair of Suntour Superbe pedals. They are cool as they have an "oversize" bearing on the inside (toward the crank) and an "undersize" bearing where the shaft is held on the outside.



    So bearing shopping time.

    Also, say I sand blast these parts... just be super careful not to blast the bearing seats?

    Also, all the road load / weight of the car being displaced on that "bearing system" say during a hard turn, that is what.. 5 inches wide, physics is cool.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  22. #747
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Well that wasn't that bad.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20171017_144223654.jpg 
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    #Protip. put the dam thing in a vice next time

    But I'm happy to see they came apart easily as you all said they would. I didn't even seem to damage the control arm. For what it's worth (for future Bowies, "Ed. God forbid") 100mm M8 bolts did the trick with more then enough thread to control easily.

    These bearings are like pepper grinders, suppose I best go get me a bearing puller now.

    The arrangement actually is not to dissimilar to a familiar pair of Suntour Superbe pedals. They are cool as they have an "oversize" bearing on the inside (toward the crank) and an "undersize" bearing where the shaft is held on the outside.



    So bearing shopping time.

    Also, say I sand blast these parts... just be super careful not to blast the bearing seats?

    Also, all the road load / weight of the car being displaced on that "bearing system" say during a hard turn, that is what.. 5 inches wide, physics is cool.
    I have done this like you have with the 3 x 8mm bolts, it works ok when you only have basic tools.

    The job is a lot easier in a press and they are cheap these days.
    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-12-T.../253027541942?

    After you buy your press you will need some basic tooling for it like some strap steel beams and some bearing and seal drivers.
    COMBO Bearing Driver Seal Driver and Bush Driver Set, Hydraulic Press Accessory2 | eBay

    This stuff just makes the job so much easier and enjoyable.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
    2002 Renault Laguna V6
    1973 Alpine A110

    http://alpine-a110.weebly.com/

  23. #748
    Fellow Frogger! Shoji's Avatar
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    Or slip your friendly neibourhood mechanic a fifty. Who replaces your bearings and rotors using his press. But takes two-three weeks to get it done.
    Cheers. John
    “Listen very carefully, I shall say this only once.”

  24. #749
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    There is a press in the maintenance shed at work, I'm going to gather all the bits and have a go.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  25. #750
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    There was a joke doing the internets some time ago. You all probably remember it. NASA developed a pen that could write in zero G at a cost of millions of dollars in research funds. Russians used a 2 kopeiki pencil. (I still regret selling my ex-military soviet reel to reel tape recorder).

    I have a press but never used it for the R hubs. Simply not worth it. By the time you buy the press, find a suitable piece of grade A scrapbinium that fits the inner race and suitable rests for the hub and so on, I am done replacing the bearings and the carrier back in the car.

    Specialist tools are nice and very useful, but don't get carried away if you can do it more efficiently with minimal(ist) tooling. I like the idea of three bolts worth five cents doing the job of a 200kilo 200bucks monster.

    That said, I would encourage everybody to slip me a fifty for pressing the bearings out of their R12 hub carriers on my press.
    Sunroof and Shoji like this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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