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  1. #51
    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    fair enough but that would probably be 185/60 or 185/55 and the minimum rim width for those is 5"

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    so new, or modified, wheels then.

    cheers! Peter
    R18 wheels will give you 5" wide and will most likely be the cheapest way to go, unless you come across someone on here selling a set of old Cosmic or Dunlop alloys.
    Regards Col

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Cheers all.

    Look yes I'm running around way ahead of myself, But the way I figure it. Goridni has done all the hard work for us as far as something to aim for. I'm just currently researching the required contacts so I can be organized for when I want to hit go on things. I work in operations and it's the curse of the job really. At work I'm stuck thinking 12-24m ahead most of the time, why should my Renault 12 plans be any different

    No I'm not about to throw 24mm bars into a unknown 12 with stock dampeners and springs,
    Yes It will be going to uncles Dave's for club rego,
    Yes I will get my finger out and over to some events, driving a slow car fast was the dam point in all this.
    Yes there probably honestly is more car in a clapped out 12 then I would no what to do with on a circuit / at an event.
    Yes I'm a little to excited and just need to calm down

    I took it out to the Ballet tonight, (don't worry I had a permit) and my partner hardly complained. That pretty much means she likes it I think.
    If you want to do grass roots motor sport in the car as it is, motorkhanas are a good place to start and a standard R12 is a great car for this.

    My only tip here is make sure the hand brake works well so that you can steer it around a tight course on the rear wheels.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    If you want to do grass roots motor sport in the car as it is, motorkhanas are a good place to start and a standard R12 is a great car for this.

    My only tip here is make sure the hand brake works well so that you can steer it around a tight course on the rear wheels.
    Just a thought on this point. Being an early 12, it will likely still have the under dash handbrake, if you require a new pawl so it actually stays on let us know. Anyway, to make it more suited to motorkhanas, it'll be a good opportunity to install a hydraulic handbrake between the seats, at the same time as a 15/17 brake upgrade. Keeping the underdash handbrake will make it a bit more legal, in not having to work out how to fit the hydraulic handbrake around the later 12 type floor handbrake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    ???

    A good way to lessen understeer is to have relatively more of the roll stiffness (& thus weight transfer & thus grip degradation) at the rear. So a relatively stiffer rear bar compared to the front will lessen understeer & a relatively stiffer front bar will increase understeer. Playing with roll stiffeness differences via changes in spring, sway bar & damper rating in compression 'phase are major ways of adjusting handling balance.

    I always wondered with the R17 TL bars if the rear was a greater thickness increase than the front one by reference to an R12 or if the balance was the same.

    cheers! Peter


    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    That's why I said you don't want a huge difference between the front and the rear sway bars.
    Yes, all is now clear. (I was, you see, thinking of having a thicker bar at the rear; so . . . .)

    cheers! Peter

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    My opinion is to overhaul all the bushings, tie rod ends etc, double the spring rates front and rear, use 17 mm ARB front and 20 mm rear. Yes, I know, it's a big difference! But even the 12G is known for terminal understeer so you either have to lower the front or use a smaller front ARB. My first choice would be 18 mm, but 17 mm is now on, so buy only a 20 mm rear ARB off an R17 from the wreckers and sink the $500 on other upgrades like springs and shocks. Look up the standard spring rates, double them and ask Kmac to make the springs from you. Let me know if you need help calculating spring heights.

  6. #56
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Many thanks Thanos, Yes I'm sure to keep you all informed with all the boring details.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

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    Have a look a Paul's (G4ME) R17G and copy that. Springs will be different obviously because of different weights but that car is so well set up it amazes me. It gets less wheel spin off the line than most of the rear drive cars in it's class and the way it turns in without any understeer is very impressive.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails My R12 POS Arrived!-paul-thumbs-up.jpg  
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Have a look a Paul's (G4ME) R17G and copy that. Springs will be different obviously because of different weights but that car is so well set up it amazes me. It gets less wheel spin off the line than most of the rear drive cars in it's class and the way it turns in without any understeer is very impressive.
    Lots of negative camber on the front would help the turn in a lot.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Lots of negative camber on the front would help the turn in a lot.
    Yes that's right. That's why we did it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Lots of negative camber on the front would help the turn in a lot.
    And a lower front end. It looks like 2.5 degrees negative camber, 20 mm lower. Add around -1 mm tow (front end is 1 mm "open" ) and you have the cure for understeer. But I am a bit surprised to see this car on gravel, it does not seem to have the suspension travel for it.

  11. #61
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I think that photo was shot at the end of a tarmac climb, (Rob Roy Hill Climb?) i.e he was turning around I suppose

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

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  12. #62
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    Well finally got a chance to take it down the road for an inspection, (Thanks David, that guy you put me onto is great ) and there was a few bits I missed

    Trailing arm bushes on the right wrecked.
    Steering rubber (universal joint) is really split.. (oops)
    Plate lights no work (front and rear, could have sworn they were working..) (#Ed. wait did I say front plate bulb... :S tripping hard last night it seems.)
    High beam switch broken.

    That last one is a bit of fun. when I say broken I mean activating high beam will cause smoke to billow from the wires under the steering column. To the point where I'm a little scared to touch anything else for it might decide to burn itself to the ground. Having said that it's nice to know I have an electrical fire on demand should I require one.

    So as I wanted a POS, well it might not to be to far from the truth

    I'll fix the rubbers in the meantime and think carefully about replacing / removing the electrics...

    Also, previous owner had removed the window sprayers and just installed "bolts." I had assumed window washers might have been a luxury item back in 1971 and didn't bother looking into them. To Super Cheap.

    And Kenny, did you seriously never turn on high beam whilst you had it? Didn't you put fancy low current bulbs in it?
    Last edited by bowie; 6th October 2015 at 10:51 AM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    Well finally got a chance to take it down the road for an inspection, (Thanks David, that guy you put me onto is great ) and there was a few bits I missed

    Trailing arm bushes on the right wrecked.
    Steering rubber (universal joint) is really split.. (oops)
    Plate lights no work (front and rear, could have sworn they were working..)
    High beam switch broken.

    That last one is a bit of fun. when I say broken I mean activating high beam will cause smoke to billow from the wires under the steering column. To the point where I'm a little scared to touch anything else for it might decide to burn itself to the ground. Having said that it's nice to know I have an electrical fire on demand should I require one.

    So as I wanted a POS, well it might not to be to far from the truth

    I'll fix the rubbers in the meantime and think carefully about replacing / removing the electrics...

    Also, previous owner had removed the window sprayers and just installed "bolts." I had assumed window washers might have been a luxury item back in 1971 and didn't bother looking into them. To Super Cheap.

    And Kenny, did you seriously never turn on high beam whilst you had it? Didn't you put fancy low current bulbs in it?
    All of the stuff you mentioned is easy to fix.

    You can source a good second hand trailing arm and steering universal, these are easy to change and you will notice a difference in the handling when they are fitted.

    The lights are either globes or electrical connections that will have 40 years of grime that needs cleaning off.

    The head light switch will probably need changing, they are known to fail. These are easy to fix, disconnect the battery, remove the covers from the steering column. The head light switch has a plug and a stud and nut arrangement to disconnect and the switch is held to the steering column with two screws.
    Regards Col

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    My first R10 had a smoking headlight switch. I noticed that it only smoked if it was switched on/off slowly which caused arcing, and the grease and dust on the contacts smoked when it got hot. Cleaning the contacts and flicking the switch quickly solved the problem.

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    And as usual, this place is amazing.

    We'll time to take it apart and clean it and see how it goes,

    The inspector was also upset the springs had failed in the switch, ie. there was no resistance flicking the lights from high to low beam, but that should be pretty straight forward.

    Good news!

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    And as usual, this place is amazing.

    We'll time to take it apart and clean it and see how it goes,

    The inspector was also upset the springs had failed in the switch, ie. there was no resistance flicking the lights from high to low beam, but that should be pretty straight forward.

    Good news!
    To me it sound like you need another light switch. I have not had one fail on me but have bought wrecks where the switch is broken like yours, I have just put it down to a heavy hand previous owner.

    The switches are riveted together, I have never tried to pull one apart but if you do you will need four bolts and nuts to replace the rivets that you drill out.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah!

    Well best have a look to see if I can replicate this smoke at least either way. next next weekend.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

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    glad you said replicate and not replace the smoke as i've never had luck putting smoke back in.
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    Ah you just need the correct tool

    Lucas Replacement Smoke Kit
    Exfrogger likes this.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    The inspector was also upset the springs had failed in the switch, ie. there was no resistance flicking the lights from high to low beam, but that should be pretty straight forward.
    Yours sounds like it may be one of the early combined flasher/light combination switches. These are rarer than the later separate flasher/light switches but can be replaced by the later version.
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    I may* just have the early combined light/blinker assembly in a 12 I will be disposing of soon. It'll be a few weeks before I lay eyes on it again but I know it is an early model with the unit I described, but I need to check that I still have it on the column or one of its spares in the boot. Its yours for the cost of posting (1 x pint) if you can hold out for it.

    Also, years ago I did separate one of these units to try and fix the non-distinctive change between high and low beams. It turns out that this is governed by a rectangular bit of plastic, flat on 3 sides to lock it into place and the 4th (long) side has 2 distinct ridges and hence 3 distinct valleys in it that allow the arm of the light switch to sit in the 3 different locations and this bit of plastic perishes and splits resulting in the lack of resistance between locations. I worked around it with a bit of welding wire and some self-tappers in some pre-drilled holes but it is hardly a "good" solution

  22. #72
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Not sure if it's combined or not. There is a secondary indicator stalk in front of it? Do you mean combined as two stalks in one switch?

    It looks like this;

    My R12 POS Arrived!-blinker.jpg

    The far switch is the one that's smoking. I rotate it counter clockwise? to turn the lights on (where it smokes) and then move it up to activate high beams where It then flops down to the middle. I feel that's where a spring would pull it back swiftly. I can't exactly recall but I feel I could have pushed it down to active high beams also?

    Thank you for the offers of a switch. As a back up plan I had decided there was enough dash space to drill holes and install manual switches from Jaycar.

    Anyway, I'll pull it out first and go from there. Thanks all

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  23. #73
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    Don't do the Jaycar switch the switch thingo.

    Those stalks are so handy where they are and so well designed to operate with one finger, it will completely destroy what I think it's one of the best ergonomics of the car and still top design to this date. There's plenty of spare switches like that around, just wait for more readers of your thread to put their hand up. I am pretty sure I have one (the later type I think) you can have for postage but I am in WA. There's bound to be one closer to you. If there isn't, just let me know.
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    From what I can see and based on the year model it will have the blinker switch and light switch as one single unit (same as on an R16), so there will be a few kicking about.
    You are right about the high beam flash option. Up is flash, rotate for parkers, down one click for low beam and down one further for high beam.
    My opinion is to second the "avoid the JayCar option".

  25. #75
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

    My R12 POS Arrived!-smpxk54409.jpg
    My R12 POS Arrived!-smpxk54407.jpg
    My R12 POS Arrived!-smpxk54411.jpg

    Thank you mystery Ute / high bumper bared 4WD.

    Pull into my street coming home from work and I'm like.. wait a second! *sigh*



    At least they didn't destroy the indicator globe. That's a plus. And I suppose that makes up my mind about the parking stripes.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Old 15/17 brakes and gearbox bits Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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