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Thread: My R12 POS Arrived!

  1. #626
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    You are so infuriating, Bowie.

    If you had taken my 12 when I first offered it, you would now have a sweet engine, 17TL front brakes and sway bar, rev counter (proper), a good radiator, the pertronix ignition module and so on.

    How much much are you in now?

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  2. #627
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Yeah yeah I know.

    I had a radiator too (in Melb) but I moved it on when I moved up here. Just wasn't enough space to take everything.. ..

    If I had a spare 5, 6 hundred at the time I would have taken you up on it. Incidentally, it's still there?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  3. #628
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yep. For some incomprehensible reason I just can't throw it away.
    Shoji likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  4. #629
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    You don't really need a bigger radiator in a 12 unless you're planning on doing some racing.
    The R12's sold in Australia were the 'tropical' versions so had the larger (than Europe) radiators anyway.
    Even in the middle of summer in peak traffic the standard cooling systems shouldn't overheat provided it's in reasonable condition.
    As you're fitting an electric fan it should be even less likely to cook.
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

  5. #630
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ren! I must measure that rear window louver and workout if aus post will ship it for you! I'll measure it tonight!

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  6. #631
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well my weekend is here now the V8's have packed up and buggered off! Gees they are a noisy bunch. Anyway Bunnings tomorrow to get a torch and some lead to have a crack at repairing the radiator. Having sprayed a bit of "grease be gone" around the front of the engine I was encouraged by the arrow on the crank pulley! Naturally it had been covered in a few mm's of soot. All this cleaning really is a performance upgrade. Of course once you start it kinda comes addictive, well the spots left unclean are easily visible. There is so much I want to take out / of paint / etc etc but what's the point if it's still working.

    There was heaps of oil on the front of the crank case, I think I've tracked it back to a bolt on the right hand side being absent. Others have mentioned a seal on the crank pulley (I assume in the timing cover) that usually leaks everywhere, with the fan then picking it up and spraying it all over the place. Can one replace that with the engine still in the car? Just a matter of taking the front timing cover off and replacing?

    Also the crank grommet on the pulley, I assumed it was attached in front of the nut, not the nut itself. There ya go.

    If I was confident I could take the "manifold" off without leaving a few bolts snapped in horrible places that would be next (along with the rocker cover). but perhaps I might just get the thing rego'd first..

    The Solex looks like it should detach easily enough. but perhaps a toothbrush is just as well to clean the bottom half of the body until I bother with a rebuild kit. Whilst I was driving it around it was stalling under hard right hand turns. I assume the float is sticky / catchy / old. And when I mean hard I mean tyres protesting hard. Perhaps it's not that bad.

    Anyway bonus worn / tired 810 pictures included for free!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk56006.jpg   My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk56007.jpg   My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk56008.jpg   My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk56010.jpg   My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk56009.jpg   My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk56012.jpg  

    My R12 POS Arrived!-pxk56016.jpg  

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  7. #632
    COL
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    The front engine seal can be replaced while the engine is still in the car, like everyone says this is the usual place for oil leaks at the front of the engine.

    Don't remove the timing cover because it is a bugger of a job to get back on. You will need to lower the sump a bit, also there is a special tool to align the timing cover so that the front engine seal is central with the crankshaft.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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  8. #633
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, replace the front crank seal, and then replace it again and again, and again, until you realise it is the front c'shaft pulley that's the problem. Because by now it has a nice little groove where the seal lip rubs and no matter how many seals you change it won't fix it.

    You need to fix the crank pulley (bugger of a job) or replace it with a new one (if you can find it).

    By the way, did I tell you my car came with a new front crank that doesn't leak?

    Previous owner found it somewhere and after trying to repair the old one with a speedisleeve which lasted very little (too soft), he replaced it with the new one.

    You might have better luck if you find a place where they can metal spray it. I have had my rocker arm shafts repaired that way. Or you could try having it welded and machined, but you do realise it has to be a precision job, 'cos if it don't spin true, it don't seal.

    Or you could try to half arse it and polish the groove burrs as much as you can and space the seal out (or in) so it doesn't run in the old groove.

    But, in the words of the great philosopher Muiete, thou shalt not half arse today that which you can totally arse tomorrow. Yo.
    Bustamif likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  9. #634
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Wow, you've got a started dog.
    Handy if your battery is flat (provided you have the corresponding holes in the front panel under the radiator and the numberplate isn't in the way).

    The R12 shop has a crank pulley, don't know if it's new or used.
    https://www.renault12shop.com/7700649910,7700650823
    Well, they have the item listed. Whether they have them available is another matter.

    If you know anyone in Turkey or Romania you could probably get a new one out of those countries.

    Cheers
    RTT
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

  10. #635
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I do have the starter dog and yes there is hole in the front to match. I must find a toothed probe and try to crank it one day for giggles. I assumed the tyre jack arm would have a setup to allow but it doesn't.

    And copy that everyone. Leave the timing cover alone, and look for a new crank pulley before worrying about the seal (if at all)

    Schlitzaugen is this the place to tell you I dreamed about your wagon last night? I dreamed I sold the Ovlov, and was driving up the coast with surfboards, tent, partner and dog. I knew it was a dream because both where apparently happy sitting in a 40yr old car without aircon on the highway, and I don't own a surfboard anymore.

    What colour is the wagon? will it match the gum tree in my driveway?

    Perhaps I should work out how to get it here..

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  11. #636
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Of course there's a hole in your front skirt, it's visible in your Avatar.
    (One should look before one types).
    If you have an original bumper bar and it's fitted, there should also be a plate on the bottom edge with a hole that should also line up with the hole in the skirt and the starter dog (but rarely do now).
    But most end up being obscured by the number plate unless you have one of the original number plate mounts.
    Your jack crank in the boot should fit the starter dog, if it's the original one.
    Could be why they made it about a foot longer than it needs to be for a jack only.
    My last 12 had the starter dog but my current one has just a bolt.

    Oddly, my last 12 also had a double crank pulley.
    The outer belt groove was slightly smaller than the inner groove.
    Maybe the PO had dreams of fitting aircon at one time.
    I took the double pulley off as it was a PITA getting to the crank bolt to turn the motor when setting the timing etc.


    Cheers
    RTT
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

  12. #637
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well that was fun.

    Clean it up somewhat,
    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20170825_110449745_hdr.jpg

    Use way to much Solder and realize you should have got a smaller gauge to make it easy on yourself.
    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20170825_114221954.jpg

    Paint the cancerous growth
    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20170825_122949421.jpg,

    And carry on because you just want the thing to hold water!

    But don't worry! I have a plan, in effort to draw ones attention away from the horrible soldering job, Behold! A rare NOS Gordini pulley I found in my spare parts bin..

    My R12 POS Arrived!-img_20170825_122918589.jpg

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  13. #638
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Also I don't feel bad about the little 10" anymore. I doubt a 12' in this format would have fitted without messing with the radiator mounts. As you can see it's over to the left as far as it can be and it just clears the Gordini pulley.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-10inch.jpgMy R12 POS Arrived!-close.jpg

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  14. #639
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post

    [...]

    Schlitzaugen is this the place to tell you I dreamed about your wagon last night? I dreamed I sold the Ovlov, and was driving up the coast with surfboards, tent, partner and dog. I knew it was a dream because both where apparently happy sitting in a 40yr old car without aircon on the highway, and I don't own a surfboard anymore.

    What colour is the wagon? will it match the gum tree in my driveway?

    Perhaps I should work out how to get it here..

    Totally, dude. You just park it under the tree and it will soon melt into the landscape.

    It was white, but now it has camouflaged into a sort of faded creamy-grey to match my concrete driveway.

    The wheel brace that comes with your car should serve as crank handle as well (you don't have it, obviously). The pin that engages the scissor jack drive is used to crank the engine.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 28th August 2017 at 02:38 AM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #640
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    What was wrong with it again just the "maybe" clutch?

    I didn't post a shot of the fan on the radiator. Shame on me.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-cancer.jpg

    Would buy 10" again as it fits. Oh and that horrible looking growth holds fluid! Yaaaaaay

    All back together it looks bizarre without the trad open blade fan.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-mad-810.jpg


    But speaking of holding fluid. I poured 5L of coolant into it which then promptly made it's way to the ground. It's leaking out of the bottom water pump hose, just where it seals on the outlet to the pump. I checked the hoses when they were off (cleaned them all) and they all seemed ok. Hopefully I missed a crack and a new generic right angle hose will see it true.

    There was however a bit of chalky build up on the water pump outlet. I scrubbed it off and cleaned it all, I wonder if a "bowie" before me had a similar problem and plumbed it up with tape. Suppose that couldn't hurt either.

    Le sigh. So close! and it hasn't turned over in a fortnight now It will have to wait to Sunday now (If I'm not angry at it)

    Anyway! still learning heaps. I;

    -Used a blowtorch and didn't blow up
    -Understand why the smaller gauge solder was more expensive
    -Feel much better about sticking a small screwdriver into a radiator core now as I didn't break anything else
    -Know how to bleed a cooling system
    -And my painting is getting better


    going to claim a 70% win for today.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  16. #641
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Hey, only having a R12 that runs makes you a winner 100% as far as we're concerned.

    After all you have about 100% on me.
    Shoji likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #642
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Well found the leak from the water pump...

    My R12 POS Arrived!-leak.jpg


    Why yes the bleed screw was undone and it was pooling silently to as if it was coming out of the bottom hose.

    Oh how wonderful daylight is.

    Now a leak is where the probe is inserted into the top radiator hose. I'll add a pad / aka something for the width of the probe to settle into as it's not sealing properly against the outlet and the clamp.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-leak2.jpg

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  18. #643
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Ah how lucky, but the most perfect piece of self sticky foam was floating around the tool box.

    My R12 POS Arrived!-foam.jpg

    BAM!

    Now cue image of me in the kitchen waiting for the tea to boil as it dries in the sun,

    My R12 POS Arrived!-flyscreen.jpg

    And where is that youtube video of it running with my thumbs up in victory?

    https://youtu.be/WxbLC6_ss24

    So I'll drive it around for a couple of days and check that the rocker gasket is still holding oil, and that it's not going to spew everywhere when really hot, then time for Rego Mk3?

    I think I had 3 goes in Victoria before it was organized too..

    You have a nice day now.
    Last edited by bowie; 27th August 2017 at 12:56 PM.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  19. #644
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Since now you're so handy with the soldering on radiators, I would suggest you drill a little hole in the radiator outlet for the hose and solder that probe in at the respective depth.

    Your foam is not going to last there.
    Sunroof likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #645
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Hello Bowie,

    Good job and it's all coming together.
    Don't be too worried about the soldering, as long as it's watertight it's good enough.
    The pipes do have some mechanical stress on them from vibration although the rubber hoses isolate most of that.

    I don't want to rain in your parade but it think the fan thermostat should be in or near the bottom radiator hose, as suggested by Schlitzaugen. Yes the top hose is easier to reach and might even be where the fan instructions tell you fit the thermostat but this is the 'hot' end of the radiator. The thermostat should be reading the temperature at the 'cool' end, i.e. near the radiator outlet pipe.
    If you're taking the temperature at the hot end your fan is going to be running a lot more than necessary.
    Have a look at where the fan switches are mounted on most cars and you'll see they're always somewhere near the radiator outlet.
    This is so that when the natural airflow through the radiator is adequate to cool the radiator (like highway cruising or cold days) then fan doesn't switch on as well. The coolant out of top hose is always going to be hot as long as the thermostat is open and the engine running, even when cruising.
    One other suggestion, Maybe you have done so already but personally I would wire the fan on the permanently live circuit so the fan will keep running for a while when the engine is switched off. Maybe in conjunction with a timer.

    Cheers
    RTT
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

  21. #646
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    I agree with Ren Tin Tin. Well put RTT.

  22. #647
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Good advice, I agree, but I would avoid turning the engine off when the fan is running.

    I mean I wouldn't rely on the fan to cool an engine with the coolant stationary.

    To be clear, the part about where to place the thermostat pick up probe is spot on, you need to do that no matter what for the reasons explained by RTT.

    That is because the water pump no longer circulates the coolant and what you're doing is just cooling the thermostat probe.

    Let the fan stop by itself and turn the engine off after that. It shouldn't run for more that a couple of minutes anyway when idling (car stationary).

    You might say this is not a real problem with an iron cast block but I think Frans has showed us some effects of cavitation in his (or one of the engines he worked on). That is what you are trying to avoid by using my method (and heat soak around the exhaust valves area - which is the first place cold coolant goes after the pump). In your engine, given that the exhaust and intake are on the same side, you might even vaporise the fuel in the intake and carby and develop starting problems - vapour lock (especially after short periods with the engine off).

    Call it cheap insurance.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  23. #648
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    If the fan was mechanical doesn't it stop as soon as the motor stops, and with no ill effects. I like the idea of the fan running after the motor is stopped and if the water pump isn't turning all the fan does is cool the water in the radiator, and blow air over the motor. I have had cars that come factory standard with the fan continuing to run after the motor is stopped. From memory I think the R17 is one. But electric fans rarely run except in stop start traffic in the middle of summer, and when idling for a long period. The exception is air conditioned cars such as the R25 that has one of the two fans running when ever the AC is on.

  24. #649
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    We are not sure what causes the bad corrosion found in some alloy blocks. Cavitation is still a major suspect.

    I realise this may be academic for Bowie and his cast iron block, but I maintain the argument that you are not taking away the heat from the valve side of the head if you're running a fan on a stopped engine.

    Even then, I have seen bad "corrosion" in alloy heads, so this may be pertinent to R12 810 engines. I put corrosion in inverted commas because we are not sure it is not cavitation caused by heat soak attacking the alloy.

    The R17TL had an engine driven fan, the 17G (don't know about the TS) had electric fan, but it didn't run once the ignition was off.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  25. #650
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Very interesting discussion everyone.

    Perhaps there is some merit to drill and install a proper sensor in the bottom of the radiator. A screw in sensor (providing I solder in a threaded shaft) shouldn't cause any issues?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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