K4M into an R10
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Thread: K4M into an R10

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default K4M into an R10

    It's going to be a challenge that's for sure. I've started the preliminary research, I have the engine. The good news, a late R10 bellhousing fits, the bad news, the stock K4M flywheel doesn't fit in the bellhousing. Luckily renault hasn't changed the end of the crank and a 1.4 r12 flywheel I have will bolt straight on. The R12 flywheel has no trigger tabs for the timing and as the front of the crank shaft is not keyed I can't put one on the pulley. So far the best solution with this flywheel would be to drill 36 holes in the non clutch side and Mount.the sensor under the engine. I'll have to check the clearance. Another option is a different flywheel that's small enough but has a trigger wheel, an R18 may fit.

    The spigot hole in the crank is large, this is good as I can just make a bushing to get tell correct size.

    The throttle body is an electronic fly by wire type so I won't be able to use it easily, will probably use something different. Will.probably not be going with the stock ecu.

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    In parallel I also need to complete the rest of the car but I figured this could use its own thread

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    Fellow Frogger! Jensen's Avatar
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    Do 5GT Turbos have a tdc sensor? If so you could probably pick up a lightened flywheel from the UK pretty easily.
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    A project a number of us will follow with some interest.

    Bonne chance! Peter
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    Do 5GT Turbos have a tdc sensor? If so you could probably pick up a lightened flywheel from the UK pretty easily.
    The R5 Gt flywheel (200mm clutch) is to big for the R10 bellhousing. A few of the first gen R5 flywheel fits and have a trigger pattern but the pattern is a bit odd.

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    I'm attempting to join a French forum where someone has put a K4M into an A110 to ask some questions. He went with carbs and a dizzy which I cannot do as it needs to be ADR compliant in terms of emissions so has to remain injected.

    What is odd about the R5 bolt pattern, an R12 is 7 bolts?

    The drilling of the R12 flywheel may still be the best option, I just hope the clutch doesnít end up being too small or weak.
    Last edited by c.lees; 1st September 2015 at 05:05 PM.

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    A Renault 5 Gordini turbo has a trigger type flywheel which fits inside the bellhousing the R5 GT Turbo flywheel is slightly bigger and does not however there is enough meat in the bellhousing to let you in with a very large flycutter or on a big faceplate to machine the bellhousing to clear the bigger flywheel I did this when fitting a 5 gt turbo motor into a R10
    What about using the latest 1500cc diesel it would be far quicker than any petrol of similar size and do 70 to the gallon!!!!!!
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    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

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    IF you're looking at 200mm flywheels, the late R12 had one, and I think you can borrow the bellhousing off a 352 to fit.

    Not sure about drilling the flywheel, but you can machine its outer edge with a finger mill (just machine out a series of "gulfs" in the edge) to create the trigger pattern you need. You need to figure out where you will have the TDC sensor first though before you machine anything. But you knew that.
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    I got a reply from the guy in France, he said a R18 1400 type 2 or as Steve said and R5 alpine turbo. He used an R5 alpine turbo clutch.

    I hadn't considered cutting the edge of the flywheel, I'll take a look when I get home in two weeks. When you drill the back the holes are blind.

    Does the 352 bellhousing bolt to the 330 side casings?

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi, Just thinking. Would it not be possible to fit a trigger wheel to the front pulley? It can be cheaply cut through water cutting process. It could be less than $50.00 for a trigger wheel. I have done a few for the racing cars here in NZ. Although the K4M have no keyway in the pulley they should not move when properly torqued and you might just have the feature of positioning the pulley correctly instead of doing a calibration.

    There are guys on here that have done their FI and Ignition through the MegaSquirt System. It is very good value for money.

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    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Only problem with using the pulley is the lack of a key, just means you'd have to adjust the timing of the ecu every time the pulley comes off, which shouldn't be that often

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    Done a bit more reading/thinking, the R18 that was mentioned was a 1400, was this available in Australia? Was it just an 847 with fuel injection? The R12 flywheel I have is off an 847. More thoughts on cutting the edge of the flywheel, may not be possible as it has been lightened so its probably no longer thick enough around the edge.

    Can't even look at it at the moment, I'm at sea on a boat in the Great Barrier Reef. Don't get excited, it's work and I'd prefer to be at home.

    The R5 Alpine clutch is 181mm so should work, the one on Mecaparts says its a 20 spline but no mention of the diameter. I'd assume its 17mm, same as an R8/10/12. Can someone clarify this. Not sure it it bolt straight up or if I'll need to redrill the flywheel for the clutch.

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    K4M into an R10-cleon_motors_alliance_-_1298-_1255_or_r8g_clutch_-_pressure_plates_small.jpgHere in Canada the 1.4 Alliance car has the trigger wheel but the diameter is to large to fit into the 330 bell housing. The 1.4 alliance crank bolt pattern is the larger 7 bolt which happens to be the same as the 807 style blocks . The 352 transmission that the R12 1565 engine uses the bell housing will fit onto the 330 transmission but the 1565 motor bolt pattern is larger than the cleon style blocks . A possible solution would be to build an adapter plate to use the larger engines bolt pattern so the trigger flywheel from a front wheel drive car setup up would work or use the trigger flywheel from the larger engine.


    Hope this is helpful

    Manic gt
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails K4M into an R10-cleon_motors_and_r8g_build_up_including_flywheels_015.jpg  

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    I'm trying to avoid making adapter plates, but if I was to then an R16 (336) bellhousing and the stock K4M flywheel would work. The good thing about the current proposed flywheel is its much lighter.

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    There is no way I'd feel comfortable about an adaptor plate (hub) between crank and flywheel.

    It might be simplest to commission a billet flywheel and be done with it.

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    The adapter would be between the block and bellhousing.

    I may run into other issues with my grand plan. May need a collapsible steering column and bigger brakes to get it passed. I may be able to get some bits from the Clio or the steering column. Then there is the ecu which usually involves throwing money at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    The adapter would be between the block and bellhousing.

    I may run into other issues with my grand plan. May need a collapsible steering column and bigger brakes to get it passed. I may be able to get some bits from the Clio or the steering column. Then there is the ecu which usually involves throwing money at it.
    There is no problem that cannot be overcome by the throwing of a big enough bucket of money at it.
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




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    I think it's a non VVT version, so to get it going you initially could pick/choose from late nineties standalone ECUs off similar size/spec engine cars.

    The bloke who put the quick motor in a Scenic blindsided the donor ECU from memory, that could be another option.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post

    I may run into other issues with my grand plan. May need a collapsible steering column and bigger brakes to get it passed. I may be able to get some bits from the Clio or the steering column.
    I had to fit a collapsible column to the 4CV when I put the 807 16TS engine in it to get it complied. After a lot of loooking I found that an E21 (around 1977 to 1983) BMW 3 series column fitted up very easily. The length was good, the outer was 30mm (I think) in diameter and was a neat fit in the hole in the floor, and the bolt spacing was the same at the flexible disc as the R10 rack that I had fitted.

    I used the switchgear and ignition that was supplied with the BMW column, as that gave me all I needed, and made it all a bit easier to fit and wire up. I also had to fit inertia seat belts all round, R10 4 wheel discs, dual circuit master cylinder, got approval for a front mounted fuel tank, had to fit at least two speed wipers (used a modded Fuego one).
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Only problem with using the pulley is the lack of a key, just means you'd have to adjust the timing of the ecu every time the pulley comes off, which shouldn't be that often
    On my Scenic Rx4, similar setup to the Clio, after the mechanic who did the timing belt change didn't tighten the crank bolt enough and hence, he had to rebuild the head at his cost. I got an engineer mate of mine to machine a key to fit. I have the only F4R engine in existence with a keyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    I had to fit a collapsible column to the 4CV when I put the 807 16TS engine in it to get it complied. After a lot of loooking I found that an E21 (around 1977 to 1983) BMW 3 series column fitted up very easily. The length was good, the outer was 30mm (I think) in diameter and was a neat fit in the hole in the floor, and the bolt spacing was the same at the flexible disc as the R10 rack that I had fitted.

    I used the switchgear and ignition that was supplied with the BMW column, as that gave me all I needed, and made it all a bit easier to fit and wire up. I also had to fit inertia seat belts all round, R10 4 wheel discs, dual circuit master cylinder, got approval for a front mounted fuel tank, had to fit at least two speed wipers (used a modded Fuego one).
    And very well it works too! I can vouch for that thanks Alan!
    Last edited by JohnW; 7th September 2015 at 07:52 PM.
    JohnW

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    Just a revisiting of an earlier posted thought on steering columns.

    Obviously it is going to be a snorty little beastie & I submit that, when playing at the limit, better than the 3.7 turns of standard steering would be 2.5 turns.

    The point also applies to emergency "jinks". I've done three. One was for a wombat in the long-running Dauphine-Gordini version of the 4CV (4.2 turns). One for another wombat in the R8 (modified for 2.5 turns). The last for a cyclist in the 4CVG (2.5 turns).

    The first was in the easiest place (straight bit with transversely galumphing fur football). The second two were around swiftly traversed corners (the cyclist one is a long story & not as stupid on my part as it sounds). Despite being more inherently difficult, the latter events were very, very, much more neatly executed compared to the clumsier exercise of the one with slower steering (I over-corrected & and had one more wriggle than I should have).

    Of all the modifications which I've done to my beasties, quicker steering is the one which has made the most difference to my driving enjoyment.

    For a RHD RER, the easiest way of achieving this is to keep the standard rack (apart from anything else, it's easy to replace if worn or damaged) & section the standard steering column to receive a steering quickener kit. That kit includes a universal joint, which assists the column to collapse.

    The quickener which I used is the same as the one available here:

    NEW 1 5 1 Aluminum Quick Steer Steering Quickener KIT | eBay

    If you, or anyone else, wishes to pursue the matter further concerning fitment, then PM me.

    cheers! Peter

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    For engineering compliance in NSW to LA2 Peter, I believe the collapsible steering column must be unmodified.
    Alan's suggestion of a replacement column was what my engineer told me was needed when I enquires too.
    KB


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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    For engineering compliance in NSW to LA2 Peter, I believe the collapsible steering column must be unmodified.
    Alan's suggestion of a replacement column was what my engineer told me was needed when I enquires too.
    you poor sods. mine was engineer-fitted but not even that seems ok there ...... sigh!!

    I don't mind regulation of backyard & owner "cowboys" but if the work is engineer-scrutinised I can't see why objections would be raised.

    Peter

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    I was hoping I could still use a steering quickener as it is far cheaper then modifying the rack as Brettr did on his R8. I can ask the engineer to clarify this one.

  25. #25
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    A quick email response from an engineer, shortening a column is fine as long as you respline not weld. A quickener is also ok as long as it is rated at 200Nm or higher.

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