K4M into an R10 - Page 3
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Thread: K4M into an R10

  1. #51
    Member dauphproto's Avatar
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    I am sure I have a 5 Gordini Turbo flywheel here somewhere I will have a look this weekend

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    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  2. #52
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Starting to think I should have just gone the 807 route, would have been a lot less painful and I haven't even started to make mounts, manifolds or found and ECU. Not to mention getting it past for emissions may be expensive as its dyno time. The other down side is there is no way I'd be able to put it on club rego as it is far from period correct.
    I wouldn't be too worried about getting it on club rego, as it is only a small extra cost compared to the cost and hassle of getting another engine in there and passed, although your historic rego is an excellent arrangement compared to ours in QLD.

    Virtually any of the later programmable ECUs could be made to work reasonably.

    With fitting an 807, do you only have to pass the emissions of the period the engine is from? In my case with the 4CV, the only things it had to have was the breather going back to the air cleaner, and a CO reading under 4%, and a reasonable muffler. I may fit fuel injection sometime and have an inlet manifold to suit, and bought an old Haltech E6K to run the show, probably with batch fire injection and distributor still in place using a single coil. Might still buy a better computer and go sequential with wasted spark, but it requires a bit more work, and some money.

    The calculation at the time that was used for naturally aspirated engines was 3 times the weight of the car in Kgs, to be the capacity in ccs. So 4CV Deluxe 620Kgs X 3 = 1860cc There was no limit to the amount of Hp, only the capacity. Forced induction reduced the multiplier to 2.5.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

  3. #53
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    Did a quick front mounted trigger design. I consists of 3 parts, a keyed hub to adapt the trigger wheel to the crank, a trigger wheel and a step washer to mount the original harmonic balancer. The balancer will end up being spaced out 10 mm from the original position. The balancer would be friction locked as it is at the moment, the stepped washer is used to align the balancer as its bore is 26mm but needs a 30mm hole as it has a return on the back that normally sits inside the timing pulley. The adapter has a bore of 26mm to fit over the crank. The trigger wheel is held on the hub with 4 counter sunk M4 screws.

    Trigger wheel could be laser cut from 5mm steel, hub and washer could be steel or aluminium.

    K4M into an R10-trigger_assembly.jpg

  4. #54
    Member dauphproto's Avatar
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    Definitely have a R5 Gordini turbo flywheel in the store if you are interested
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  5. #55
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    No real progress here.

    I'm looking at an option to get a flywheel made in China as cnc is pretty cheap. Just waiting for a rough price to come back before I refine the cad model.

    What I need to know is the hole pattern for the crank and clutch cover plate. The crank pattern is the 7 bolt one used on R5s and the 847 engines. Every time I measure it it comes out different as the holes in the flywheel aren't consistent.

    I'll be using a 181mm R5 clutch, the exact pin and bolt positions would help.

    Does anyone have this information? The advantages of the custom flywheel is timing teeth and the ability to use the K4M starter.

  6. #56
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    Quality control, particularly regards material specs can be a problem when sourcing from China. It will become a very expensive flywheel if it lets go. There are plenty of good local guys in Aus that could do a quality unit at a reasonable price.

    I am still rebuilding a very rare engine that had about $50K damage caused by a poor quality inlet valve that let go due to material that was not what it was claimed to be.

  7. #57
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    If we're going to generalise, the country which has left me with the greatest ratio of outlay to disappointment is the US.

    I'm confident that a few basic elements of NDT on a Chinese flywheel will confirm its suitability or otherwise...

  8. #58
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    Luckily flywheels generally aren't made from exotic materials unless it's for a race car. It'll just be A36 hot rolled steel. If they can meet the tolerances and surface finishes and the price is right then I'm prepared to give it a go.

    Just think how much easier it'll be for others doing the same once I've done the ground work.
    addo and bowie like this.

  9. #59
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Make sure you request to have a copy of the machine file if a NC machine is used.
    Departed the Aussie Frogs Community 14 September 2018.

    The moderator/leader should not operate for the sole benefit of himself and his kind but for the benefit of the people at large and of the AF Fraternity and its patterns, as becomes what he perceives as fitting into place, into his sense of natural justice.
    with apologies to Judy Grahn

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Make sure you request to have a copy of the machine file if a NC machine is used.
    For easy replication for others?

  11. #61
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Yes that too, but any custom files created for and paid for you are your property.

    Who know you may to repeat the transplant later on.
    Departed the Aussie Frogs Community 14 September 2018.

    The moderator/leader should not operate for the sole benefit of himself and his kind but for the benefit of the people at large and of the AF Fraternity and its patterns, as becomes what he perceives as fitting into place, into his sense of natural justice.
    with apologies to Judy Grahn

  12. #62
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    Scratch that idea, the quote came back at lots. May go back to the timing on the front, it'll be cheap, just the cost of laser cutting the wheel. The rest will just take time, which is free.

    Pity really, the modern starter motor is about half the size. I'll have to check to make sure the starter I have in mind clears the block.

  13. #63
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    This just keeps on getting better. Did a trial fit of the bell housing and starter motor using the 847 flywheel. This will need a starter off an R8/10/12. Well, the starter doesn't clear the block, it doesn't miss by much so I can relieve the block a little to make it fit. If this is the route taken then I'm hoping to do it without dismantling the bottom of the motor, head has to come off for valve stem seals.

    The K4M starter also interferes with the block, but by less. Problem with this one is the node isn't long enough for the 847 flywheel. To use this I'd have to make a plate cut and drilled for the K4M starter, slot the bell housing using the current starter mount as a guide to bolt to, weld it in, cut off the old flange. Not as hard as it sounds but strength may be an issue at the flange edge.

    May be easier to get the R5 flywheel off Steve if shipping isn't too stupid.

  14. #64
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    Here is someone else's method. The guy who made this is a known fabricator in France, doesn't seem to have an email address. Any idea what it started out as? R18? I'm thinking yet another solution is to use a R16 bellhousing and an adapter plate. Does anyone have drawings of the bolt patterns of the block and flywheel centre?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails K4M into an R10-1446628866254.jpg  

  15. #65
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Christian,

    I don't know if I'm missing something here so excuse my asking you this. For a problem that may have been solved by a < $50.00 toothed wheel at the crank pulley about 6 weeks ago, why do you still want to go the flywheel way?

    I have been following the thread on and off because I had the same idea in the late 90's when I checked and found that the bellhousing of the R8/R10 would fit the 16 valve motors of those days. I then moved to NZ and the plan never took off.

    Regards,
    Frans
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

  16. #66
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    I will probably still go with the trigger wheel on the front but there are other issues, none that can't be solved. It'll be a while till the motor is actually mounted so there is no harm in doing the research to see if there is a better solution. All solutions seem to involve an after market ECU.

    The starter motor doesn't clear the block, easily rectified by grinding the block down a little, will have to take off about 2mm at most. The starter just clears a sensor. The starter from the Clio is smaller and was mounted further out as the flywheel was bigger.

    The availability of a suitable clutch as the R12 180mm clutch may not last long. The plan is to use a R5 alpine turbo clutch, may require getting the flywheel redrilled if the bolt pattern is different.

    I did get my custom flywheel designs price down to US$550, still too much.

    At least I have identified suitable brakes to get it passed as a street vehicle.

  17. #67
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    christian, why are you concerned that the 180mm clutch wont cope? the k4m only puts out 106hp.that is standard r8g power.
    i know of a r8 cranking about 130 hp and the 180 mm valeo clutch kit handles it no worries.
    cheers

  18. #68
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Make it way to strong once and never do it again?

    I do like the idea of a clutch as s fuse however. Just use the standard one.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  19. #69
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Also; Modern K engines units in old reno's would pass for Improved Production (3J) MMHAHAHAHA

    http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Race/...-3J-2017-1.pdf

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  20. #70
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    No real movement here but it would seem in France they put the F4R into R8s. It's a R16 bell housing with an adaptor plate. I imagine the manifold is for a pair of Weber DCOE carbs, legal over there.

    Perhaps I should re look at doing an adaptor for the K4M. I'd just need drawings of the bolt patterns.



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  21. #71
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Nah F4R's are $$$ right?

    If the K4M just needs one to shave the standard R12 starter mount down a smidge, and a R12 flywheel.. wait you have to change the input shaft on the 4sp gearbox?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  22. #72
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    Bowie, the R12 input shaft will be fine. The R12 flywheel will also be fine. The F4R is a 2 litre engine and available with a turbo although I don't know how long the gearbox would last.

    I'm now looking at putting the trigger wheel on the engine side of the flywheel as there is space. The advantage here is it's not on a harmonic balancer which by the nature of how they work means your trigger wheel will be rubber mounted. It will involve drilling the flywheel to mount the trigger ring and then having it rebalanced. I'm probably going to get mine drilled for a different clutch cover at the same time so I can run a 180mm R5 clutch.

    The main advantage of the adaptor plate method is the ability to use the K4M flywheel and a larger clutch. Probably a similar cost in the end.

  23. #73
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    I have seen some flywheels that have been driller directly to act as the trigger. Is that an option?

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowie View Post
    I have seen some flywheels that have been driller directly to act as the trigger. Is that an option?
    There would be no good place for the sensor. My flywheel has already been lightened so there isn't much left to drill.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using aussiefrogs mobile app

  25. #75
    1000+ Posts bowie's Avatar
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    Fair enough. This is all so exciting. Can't wait to see it in situ.

    Works: 1999 Volvo S40 T4, (has Choo Choo's)
    Playing: R12, SuperPos, thinks It's a race car.
    Previous: SuperGrumpy fuel spitting 504ti(ish), SuperComfortable 505 STI, SuperDoper carried my groceries Mi16
    Wanted Ye old K4J / K4M Click!

    "More and more of less and less" - Marina Abramović

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