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Thread: K4M into an R10

  1. #26
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    Still looking for a flywheel, this time trying for an R5. I believe the LeCar had a C1J engine with some sort of electronic ignition. Was this car ever available in Australia. Was the 1400 version of the R18TL release in Australia?

    I don't really want to have to import a flywheel, the shipping would be horrible.

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  2. #27
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    It may not be that bad, out of England especially the airfreight isn't too horrendous with Transglobal. If it's about 12kg then $130-odd out of the UK.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Still looking for a flywheel, this time trying for an R5. I believe the LeCar had a C1J engine with some sort of electronic ignition. Was this car ever available in Australia. Was the 1400 version of the R18TL release in Australia?

    I don't really want to have to import a flywheel, the shipping would be horrible.
    I'm pretty sure all the R18's sold here (few that there were) had the non-crossflow version of 1647cc.
    But you'd be struggling to find a R18 or R18 parts anywhere in Australia. I haven't seen one on the road in a coon's age (and none being parted-out) so you'd be back to importing.
    As long shot but have you tried places like Argentina, Columbia, etc.
    They often kept models in production well past their cousins in Europe plus they keep the cars longer. And freight is quite probably cheaper. (Europe and the USA are probably the most expensive places on the planet for airfreight).
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure."

  4. #29
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    No R5's ever sold here commercially. There was one or two evaluation cars brought in, the rest are private imports. My old light blue one (that occasionally pops up in the header photos) was a South African car imported by the original owner when she and her husband emigrated to Australia.

    I've never seen a LeCar in Australia in amongst any R5's I've seen in the flesh or photos here.


    kevin
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  5. #30
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    Starting to think I should have just gone the 807 route, would have been a lot less painful and I haven't even started to make mounts, manifolds or found and ECU. Not to mention getting it past for emissions may be expensive as its dyno time. The other down side is there is no way I'd be able to put it on club rego as it is far from period correct.

    Not prepared to abandon just yet as its cost me money unless I can sell the rest of the Clio to break even which I highly doubt.

  6. #31
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    Any suggestions on which forums to join to find a flywheel. Or do I just stalk ebay.

  7. #32
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    I'd contact some of the countries that had them (like US, Canada). Maybe try contacting Jacques rear-engine Renaults (a parts business in California); or the North American Renault owners club (both Jacques and the president of USA ROC, Marvin McFalls(?) have been out to Australia for 4CV Musters and other events, and may be sympathetic to helping track one down). I think Marvin may also be a member here?

    Without starting a war on NSW CRS eligibility rules, even an R16/17/18 engine in an R10 would be ineligible for club plates with RCCA so you'd have to consider which club you wanted to go with, and what their rules may be. 1289 or 1397 engines out of R12,1.4, Virage etc are fine as they are the same basic engine. Fuel injection would also rule out CRS, but one or two side draught Webers (or dellortos; or downdraft weber etc) would be OK.

    As you'd have to engineer certify what you're suggesting anyhow, full rego may seem the go. As I said on another thread, to go down the route you're talking about I'm pretty sure you'd have to get it engineered to VSB14 LA2 rules for the engine and injection you're planning. VSI6 is a guideline document illustrating what typically needs certification or not. Tracking down a flywheel shouldn't be too much of an obstacle, but I fear you will have to import one.

    The VSB and VSI documents can be downloaded free off the net if you don't already have them, but some of the documents in each section of VSB14 run to over 80pages so you're up for a bit of printing if you want a hard copy (they download as PDF's so you could just keep an electronic copy).

    KB
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  8. #33
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    Any contacts in new caledonia ,lots of french cars there ,pugs

  9. #34
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    I've found two so far, one in France for 30 Euro and one in the US which I am waiting to hear back about. I was put onto the one in France by Didier, they guy who put one in an A110. The one in the US was on the US Renault car clubs forum in a listing of LeCar parts. The kicker is going to be the freight, can't find a good price. Any suggestions? Anyone going to France and want to bring a flywheel back....

  10. #35
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    What hurry are you in? I expect to be shipping more stuff from the UK in early October (pair of coil springs, some drop links, sort of kindred items). Could put a flywheel with them.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    It's going to be a challenge that's for sure. I've started the preliminary research, I have the engine. The good news, a late R10 bellhousing fits, the bad news, the stock K4M flywheel doesn't fit in the bellhousing. Luckily renault hasn't changed the end of the crank and a 1.4 r12 flywheel I have will bolt straight on. The R12 flywheel has no trigger tabs for the timing and as the front of the crank shaft is not keyed I can't put one on the pulley. So far the best solution with this flywheel would be to drill 36 holes in the non clutch side and Mount.the sensor under the engine. I'll have to check the clearance. Another option is a different flywheel that's small enough but has a trigger wheel, an R18 may fit.

    The spigot hole in the crank is large, this is good as I can just make a bushing to get tell correct size.

    The throttle body is an electronic fly by wire type so I won't be able to use it easily, will probably use something different. Will.probably not be going with the stock ecu.

    In parallel I also need to complete the rest of the car but I figured this could use its own thread
    Why don't you machine down the 1.4 or even a 807 style with the trigger wheel on it but machine a additional area to accept a second ring gear but cut out a couple of teeth or for that matter just have a trigger wheel cut than press all the pieces onto the newly modified flywheel ? K4M into an R10-alliance_fly_wheel_preped_for_the_688_ring_gear_small.jpgK4M into an R10-alliance_fly_wheel_with_the_larger_7_bolt_pat_small.jpgK4M into an R10-cleon_motors_alliance_flywheel_-_clutch_small.jpg

    I cut my flywheel down to fit into the 330 transmission than took the ring gear off an old 1108 fly wheel and had it pressed onto the Alliance fly wheel . You need to have the unit balanced after ward ! It probably steel has lots of material left on it for a trigger wheel to be cut into it or one pressed on from another engine . This ends up using the larger clutch and pressure plate as well same as a R5. Not sure how you where planning to install a trigger wheel on the bell housing ?

    Just a thought??

    Manic GT
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails K4M into an R10-alliance_fly_wheel_modification_002.jpg   K4M into an R10-alliance_fly_wheel_modification_004.jpg  

  12. #37
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    Ditier sent me another link
    Moteur K4M dans une 4L (1600cc, 16v, 106ch) - Mécanique moteur - Préparation - FORUM Technique

    It looks like this guy made a trigger wheel that bolts onto the flywheel. This is a real option, not sure how you'd balance it, with the clutch pressure plate on, or just bolt on the trigger wheel. I could get the trigger wheel laser cut and the design wouldn't take very long. I may do a quick design this weekend and get a quote on getting it cut, not sure what material will be best, could just be mild steel. Flywheels can be made from A36 rolled plate.

    This may work out cheaper and easier to replicate for others wanting to do the same conversion as the correct flywheel seem hard to obtain, or just expensive to ship.

  13. #38
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    And the flywheel dilemma continues. I contacted Mecaparts to see if they could add a flywheel to my shipment if I could get one sent to them, they looked to see if they could get one with no luck. A lead I had isn't responding to email, can't really call as my French is non existent.

    So we are back to looking at the 847 flywheel option. I have drawn both flywheels in Solidworks to compare them, not super accurate just accurate enough to see the major differences. My 847 flywheel has been lightened quite a lot, there is a 12 mm step between the face that mounts on the crank to the ring gear. The K4M flywheels ring gear is at the same level as the crank end. Assuming the starter motor can reach the 847 flywheel (it'll have to be an R12 starter as the K4M starter will be to short) then there is a 12mm gap behind the flywheel, I could put a trigger pattern here. For the flywheel currently in my possession I'd have to laser cut a 8mm or so thick wheel and bolt it to the flywheel. Alternatively get an unmodified 847 flywheel and machine in a trigger teeth. Adding a separate part means I'll be able to get the teeth closer to the edge, they only just need to clear the starter.

    I'll have to do some reading to see how large the teeth need to be to get a good reading from a VR sensor.

    The 847 flywheel is also thicker, the distance between the crank and the clutch is 6.3mm greater then the K4M. I don't think this will be a problem, if it is I can skim a little off the front of the flywheel, just not 6mm..

    Here are some pictures for your enjoyment. As always, open to suggestions/comments.

    K4M into an R10-flywheel_847.jpgK4M into an R10-flywheel_k4m.jpg

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    And the flywheel dilemma continues. I contacted Mecaparts to see if they could add a flywheel to my shipment if I could get one sent to them, they looked to see if they could get one with no luck. A lead I had isn't responding to email, can't really call as my French is non existent.

    So we are back to looking at the 847 flywheel option. I have drawn both flywheels in Solidworks to compare them, not super accurate just accurate enough to see the major differences. My 847 flywheel has been lightened quite a lot, there is a 12 mm step between the face that mounts on the crank to the ring gear. The K4M flywheels ring gear is at the same level as the crank end. Assuming the starter motor can reach the 847 flywheel (it'll have to be an R12 starter as the K4M starter will be to short) then there is a 12mm gap behind the flywheel, I could put a trigger pattern here. For the flywheel currently in my possession I'd have to laser cut a 8mm or so thick wheel and bolt it to the flywheel. Alternatively get an unmodified 847 flywheel and machine in a trigger teeth. Adding a separate part means I'll be able to get the teeth closer to the edge, they only just need to clear the starter.

    I'll have to do some reading to see how large the teeth need to be to get a good reading from a VR sensor.

    The 847 flywheel is also thicker, the distance between the crank and the clutch is 6.3mm greater then the K4M. I don't think this will be a problem, if it is I can skim a little off the front of the flywheel, just not 6mm..

    Here are some pictures for your enjoyment. As always, open to suggestions/comments.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	74722Click image for larger version. 

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    C.lees the 847 engine and R11 1397 engines ( here in Canada we call it an Alliance which is the Cleon engine ) I believe both use the same larger crank bolt pattern but will not fit inside the 330 style bell housing ! I believe also most of the 847 and the cleon stlye engines are neutrally balanced so if you machine the flywheel it will have o be balanced again .I was trying to fit the 1397 Allainace motor onto my 330 transmission and had to machine down the diameter which included the trigger wheel to get it to fit inside the 330 bellhousing . If you use the R5 stlye fly wheel you may also have to shim the back of the throw out fork to get the pressure plat to work . That was why I turned the fly wheel down to press on the 1108 ring gear and get the spacing right for the throw out bearing .K4M into an R10-cleon_motors_alliance_flywheel_-_clutch_small.jpg

    I believe you may be able to turn a 1108 fly wheel down gain a larger clutch surface area or use a better quality of clutch and have a trigger wheel installed on it or ground into it if you remove the ring gear for the grinding effort than have it reinstalled ring gears are a press fit any way . Or do as your original thought about using the larger R5 fly wheel because of the larger clutch surface and having a trigger wheel built to fit / bolt to it . The biggest problem is the diameter of the 330 transmission bell housing it is smaller than the bell housing used on most of the front wheel drive cars or at least the ones I come across.

    Manic GT

  15. #40
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    Thanks for the additional information Manic. What is the flywheel in the photo?

    I'm pretty sure that even with the R5 flywheel I'll need to pack out the clutch release arm. I've looked at the flywheels from an 688-02 engine out of an R10S as I have two of them, they have a recess for the clutch plate so the pressure plate doesn't need a step in it. Is this the type you machined down?

    Also the offset between the crank face and the block face is different between the 847 (maybe I'll start calling this a 1397 or a C1J or a R12 1400 to avoid confusion) and the K4M, the later being larger, this probably explains part of the difference in ring gear position.

    Once you start machining flywheels that much you may as well just make one from scratch, which will be expensive as I don't have access to a lathe that large, not that they'll let me use anyway.

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    C.lees the one in the picture is off the 1397 Alliance engine , I believe in the rest of the world they call it a R11 . I have machined both the Alliance/R11 large crank bolt pattern and the smaller 1108 with the 7 crank bolts instead of 5 . I was interested in fitting the larger Alliance flywheel into the 330 bell housing so the trigger gear had to go ! I wanted to use the larger clutch/ pressure plate that the Alliance used which happened to be the same size as the R5 and I also did not want to mess with shims so it made sense to machine the trigger wheel off and use the ring gear from a 688 5 bolt crank engine to press back onto the 1397 alliance flywheel .

    When I decided to use a 810 engine that runs a smaller main journal crank I wanted a bigger clutch plate so I took the smallest 688 flywheel and machined it flat to replicate the R5 or the R8G flywheel and re-drilled the mounting points of the clutch pressure plate / disc to take the larger clutch disc. Every thing is supposed to be balanced to a neutral weight including any of the clutches or pressure plates . ( in theory but it wouldn't hurt to have them double checked as a unit )

    As a added note from what I could see the larger R17 type engine crank bolt pattern is the same as the 1397 engines at least the 2 that I have and I have a 1565cc engine that also had the same trigger wheel and flywheel that fits onto the Alliance engine .

    What crank bolt pattern does the engine run ? The 810/688 have a 7 hole pattern but it is a little smaller diameter than the 1397 / 807 style motors .

    I hope this is of some use to you research .

    Manic gt

  17. #42
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    The crank has a 7 bolt pattern, same as the 847 which I suspect is the same as the 807. I'll check the 688 flywheel to see if the ones I have use the same bolt pattern, not sure its the same, I think the diameter is smaller. The offset of the ring gear may also come into play here.

    Christian

  18. #43
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    Christian,
    With all the mismatched stuff that needs to be changed to get this lot to work "with a trigger wheel" is a bit much. I still think what (I think) Frans said in putting the trigger at the timing end of the motor would be much better and simpler. And as somebody else had done is key the crank and pulley, simple. Then you run the simplest 330 flywheel and it all works easy.

    Just too complex !!!

    Ray
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  19. #44
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    Ray, I'm starting to agree that it may be easier. I'm yet to take the harmonic balancer off to see what's behind it and what the bolt in the crank pulley looks like. If I run an after market ECU then I can use a standard trigger pattern not the strange renault one.

    One thing that was suggested to me at work today is I should check the price on having a flywheel made in China, the design part wouldn't take me long.

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    Daniel that looks like the Alliance fly wheel I wonder what the over all diameter is and if it would fit the 330 bell - housing ? I guess another question could be I wonder if a R5 bell-housing could bolt to a 330 transmission like the larger 807 style .

    Manic GT.

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    Hi,
    this stuff really is too old for me to know...

    But I talked to some Floride / Caravelle owner who installed a c3j engine (a fuel injected, cat converted 1,4 with 58HP). He used a Renault 5 (not supercing) Flywheel which has a trigger pattern for its electronic ignition.

    If you really insist I could find out the details...

    Daniel

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel R25 View Post
    That particular flywheel is the one to use and that link was sent to my by the guy in France who's done it. Unfortunately I haven't managed to get a response out of the email address on that pages.

    I'll investigate the keying of the crank this weekend and if I can space the harmonic balancer out to allow a trigger behind it.

    Does anyone know what would happen if the harmonic balancer was replaced with a regular pulley?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    That particular flywheel is the one to use and that link was sent to my by the guy in France who's done it. Unfortunately I haven't managed to get a response out of the email address on that pages.

    I'll investigate the keying of the crank this weekend and if I can space the harmonic balancer out to allow a trigger behind it.

    Does anyone know what would happen if the harmonic balancer was replaced with a regular pulley?
    C.Iees Not sure what your engine even looks like since we don't have any here in Canada that I am aware of ! Again I would stress even if you got a R5 trigger wheel it may not fit the 330 bell !
    What I have heard of doing is installing a extra disc in the distributor for a cam sensor ! I suppose if you where using something like a mega squirt system it may work ??? after all the computer system just needs to know where top dead center is for number 1 cylinder !
    Manic gt



    Manic GT

  25. #50
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    Good news everyone.

    It turns out the crank is keyed, timing pulley does not seem to be. Plan in to space out the harmonic balancer with a trigger wheel. Will have to make a keyed hub, pretty straight forward. If I have to take the pulley off then I can key it as well.

    Bolted the 847 flywheel on to check the ring gear offset, it's the same as the 688 so I can use an R10 starter. Also means the clutch should be straight forward, I'll probably use an R5 181mm clutch.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails K4M into an R10-1443231678305.jpg  

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