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    Default 185/60-13

    I am no advocate of 13" rims on a R.E.R. intended as a road car but others differ. Among other reasons, one issue with 13" rims is availability of tyres. Many fit 175/70-13 & I have posted on this size in the recent past (re R12 family). I have also remarked that not a bad sounding 13" R.E.R. mix is to use 175/70 at the front & 185/60 at the rear so that handling balance does not have to rely too much on heroic front/rear tyre pressure differences.

    175/70-13 has became a size in which one is picking none-too-wonderful tyres as the best of a fast contracting set of offerings. (My current pick for handling crispness & wet grip is Hankook's new Kinergy EX.)

    Once a popular sporting size, 185/60-13 is even more denuded (apart from rather nice but expensive "track day" types like a wet-focused tyre from Avon). The only normal road tyre that looks even half decent (criteria: handling crispness & wet grip) is, coincidentally, another Hankook, the Ventus V2 Concept. This is an obsolescent type available in only two sizes. One is 185/60-13. (The tyre type is generally supplanted in the range by the Concept 2 but that's not available in 185/60-13.) Rumour has it that the original V2 Concept is about to be discontinued entirely.

    All of which is preamble to the point of this post. Hankook has a "cash-back" promotion going until the end of the month. For Kinergy & Optimo tyres, the deal is "buy 4 & get $50 cash back". For Ventus tyres, it's $100.

    As it happens, my Moke uses 185/60-13 & its current (near time-expired) Yokohama A539 have ceased to be available here in this size. So, I've just bought 4 V2 Concept tyres. Three motivations: The A539s are due to go before next winter. The only decent replacement type seems about to disappear. And, there's a good deal right now (from my Bob Jane in Launceston it was $85 x 4 - $100 = $240 for 4, balanced & fitted).

    I'll not get them fitted to the Moke until after next summer (to chop out the Yokos) but it seemed to me that anyone with a 13" R.E.R. that's due a set of tyres could do worse than the Kinergy EX on the front in 175/70 & (minimum wheel width 5") 185/60 V2 Concept on the rear & see if one could argue for $75 cash back as a compromise.

    In any event, anyone wanting 185/60-13 has a nice window of opportunity now, even if, as with my Moke, fitment is delayed for a bit.

    cheers! Peter

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    Last edited by 4cvg; 23rd August 2015 at 11:00 PM.

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    A quick search on the Bob Jane site has brought up the Falken Ziex 175/60 13 and 185/60 13 H rated. Any thoughts on these Peter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianbcs View Post
    A quick search on the Bob Jane site has brought up the Falken Ziex 175/60 13 and 185/60 13 H rated. Any thoughts on these Peter?
    I have wet grip reservations. As far as I can work out, the V2 would be better. Whether the Ex would be better laterally is less clear but, importantly for R.E.R.s (even with the rear brake line pressure valve removed), the Ex is a good wet braker. The circumference of 175/70 & 185/60 are near as dammit identical** which makes avoiding diff stress easier if one gets a rear flat (front goes to rear & standard 135/80-15 spare to front).

    For some test results & owner reviews of the ZE912, see:

    Falken ZE912 | the Falken ZE912 reviewed and rated - TyreReviews

    2011 European Summer Tyre Test 195 65 R15 - TyreReviews

    ADAC summer tyres test (195/65R15; 3.2011) 212 | Laneks

    AutoBild summer tyres test: road surfaces conflict (185/60 R15; 4.2010)212 | Laneks

    I do note, however, that Alan Moore has (or had) them on his R16TS powered 4CV ( 185/65 as I recall, on 15" alloy wheels). When asked about them at a 4CV muster a few years ago by a puzzled me (who didn't & doesn't rate them) he said that he found them OK, so . . . . maybe you'd be happy with them.

    The ZE912 is also (like the V2) an obsolescent tyre but the ZE914 EcoRun which has supplanted it is not available in 13". So, odd sizes might linger for a bit but it's not clear how long it will be available either.

    cheers! Peter

    ** a bungle here, see below response to R8philSA for the correct story.
    Last edited by 4cvg; 23rd August 2015 at 11:03 PM.

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    Thanks Peter, there certainly do seem to be varied opinions on the Falken cheers Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianbcs View Post
    Thanks Peter, there certainly do seem to be varied opinions on the Falken cheers Brian
    Best thing always is to take little notice of anecdotal testimony & a lot of notice of formal tests & any consensus that emerges.

    I always take a very close look at what the rivals were so that, if I am familiar with a particular rival tyre's profile of performance, then I can have a better feeling for the query tyre's relative performance. So, in my case, one such tyre is Conti's PremiumContact2. (A very good wet tyre without being a total wet compounded specialist that melts in the heat.) So, seeing the ZE912 against that reference is significant (& offputting). On the other hand, one test in which it does badly is a test of tyres a class above the ZE912 & little of merit can be gained from its poor relative performance.

    Personally, I wouldn't buy them (indeed, I just avoided them in favour of the V2). I didn't even short-list them & the alternative for me was the Avon mentioned above.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 25th August 2015 at 01:42 AM.

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    So Peter, would you have any comments on fitting 185x70x13 on 5 1/2" Cosmic Mk 1 rims. ?? I mainly went for this size to bring the overall diameter back to the 135x15" size to keep speedo reading accuracy.
    Cheers Phil

    185/60-13-r8-mk1-cosmics-185-70-r13.jpg

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    My first thought is that if you mean that size all round, then I wouldn't really want that much tyre at the front because, unless you ran very high rear pressures, then, to get sanitary handling balance, you would have to run lower pressures at the front than are desirable for crisp response. Uneven tyre sizes make it easier to operate with more even pressures.

    So, what to do at the front? One could, as already mentioned, run 175/70. Or, better again for balance, 165/70. I like the latter more but then I like very taut front sidewalls for crisp handling turn-in "feel" & that is better achieved in 165/70 than 175/70 (which would require higher rear pressures for the same balance if inflated to similar sidewall-tautening high front pressures as a 165/70). My "tight front tyre" preferences are a bit unusual so I earlier mentioned 175/70 fronts as a more generally acceptable alternative.)

    Both of these sizes would obviously lower the front a bit compared to 185/70 but, given the high nose of an unladen R8, that's no bad thing.

    So, if you are set on 185/70 rears, then I'd not fit them at the front but fit 175/70 or 165/70. (Then I'd find a favourite corner with good sight-lines & set up your preferred balance on a wet day by playing with tyre pressures.)

    But should you reconsider fitting 185/70 rears? I think so. Your perfectly sound reason for wanting them is that it preserves gearing & thus speedo accuracy (or, given the wild optimism of R8/R10 speedos, inaccuracy). Another reason is that, with 185/70-13 rears & a 135/80-15 spare, you can fit the spare at the rear without stressing the diff if you have a rear flat.

    Personally, I wouldn't fuss very much about a bit of speedo inaccuracy. Both my Moke & Djet are undergeared because of tyre choice & the speedo over-reads by about 10% in each case. The mental adjustment becomes near automatic very quickly. So, a minor issue I suggest; if you fitted 185/60 & not 185/70, then the under-gearing compared to original 135/80-15 is around 7-8%. But it's still an issue & needs a counter-argument to outweigh it. In my view the counterargument is tyre choice.

    For 185/70 (& 175/70 & 165/70 for that matter) the choice is, as noted above about 175/70, very limited. As also noted, my choice (criteria: crispness of response & wet, especially braking, grip) is Hankook's Kinergy Ex. (And no, I wouldn't choose the XM2 Michelin; reason? - dubious wet grip.) For the fronts, in 165/70 or 175/70, you don't have much option. But for the rears, instead of the Ex in 185/70, you could have the superior V2 in 185/60. That's enough of a "plus", I suggest, to warrant tolerance of some speedo error.

    But what of fitting a spare for a rear flat? True, the 135/80-15 will not be usable. But it will be usable at the front & the idea then is to fit a front tyre that can be swapped to the rear without diff stress. So if one didn't worry about speedo over-reading & fitted 185/60 for the sake of better tyres, then for flat tyre scenario reasons, I'd fit the 165/70, which is almost identical in circumference to the 185/60 & would thus not stress the diff if moved to the rear in a flat rear situation. Note that in an above post, I made an error & said that 175/70 was the same as 185/60; it's not. (I was thinking of my own rear fitment of 185/60-14, not 13.)

    So, in summary of the above, I'd suggest the following order of choices.

    1) 165/70 Ex & 185/60 V2:
    + best rear tyre and best handling balance: rear flat scenario manageable
    - some speedo inaccuracy and double wheel shuffle for rear flat

    2) 175/70 Ex & 185/60 V2
    + best rear tyre and next best handling balance
    - some speedo inaccuracy and a diff concern for rear flat

    3) 165/70 Ex & 185/70 Ex
    + speedo gearing preserved and rear flat can use spare; still good handling balance
    - second best choice of rear tyres

    4) 175/70 Ex & 185/70 Ex
    + speedo gearing preserved and rear flat can use spare; still good handling balance
    - second best choice of rear tyres; handling balance not as good as above options

    5) 185/70 Ex all round
    + speedo gearing preserved and rear flat can use spare
    - second best choice of rear tyres; worst handling balance

    One could, I suppose, add another option: 185/60 V2 tyres all round, This would be better than the 185/70 Ex all round option for handling crispness but a flat would be an issue. Best fix would be to tolerate a 3% speed difference across the differential & fit a 145/65 to a standard rim as a spare.

    cheers! Peter

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    Phil, I've just had a closer look at your picture. From the look of it, you have indeed got 185/70 all round. obviously,I don't judge that to be optimal but I'd be curious to hear your comments on your experience of them.

    In particular, what brand & type of tyre have you got fitted, what pressures do you run & what remarks would you offer about handling balance in various situations? (I assume that you have a standard 3.7 turns rack; on a related topic, I highly recommend a 1.5:1 "steering quickener" to get that ratio to a bit under 2.5).

    cheers! Peter

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    I do agree on the smaller width tyres suiting our light cars better. I did have 205/50/15s on 6" rims on my 4CV for a while. These were sticky Toyo RA1 tyres, and I found that it tracked all over the place following any sort of road irregularity that there was. I fitted the Falken 185/55/15 tyres and found that this trait was made less apparent. It was possibly that the new tyres had a softer sidewall that helped the most, rather than the less width of tread, I don't know.
    Last edited by alan moore; 26th August 2015 at 10:02 AM.
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    With regards to the Avon "track /road legal" tyres what is the wear expectancy for road use only (with the obvious bit of spirited driving thrown in). I have read of fairly high wear rates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianbcs View Post
    With regards to the Avon "track /road legal" tyres what is the wear expectancy for road use only (with the obvious bit of spirited driving thrown in). I have read of fairly high wear rates.
    Low - really spirited dry road (& especially track) use will apparently chunk them a bit. I gather also that this has improved with some re-compounding.

    When I inquired some time ago, the story was that they got them in direct from the UK in a container & that, as 185/60-13 was a low demand size, it would be a matter of ordering them in for the next container.
    I was attracted to them as a wet tyre (I'm in Tasmania) but finally decided that the vehicle in question (Moke) was more used in the dry, so chose the V2 instead (helped by them being about a quarter of the price of the CR28 Sport Avon).

    Below is a link to the local mob (who were civil & helpful in response to my query).

    Gordon Leven Motorsport Tyres - Avon

    Worth considering the CR6ZZ as well, although sizes are different; one could do 175/70 fronts 185/70 rears. I investigated these when considering briefly reverting the Djet to 15" for a Targa Tasmania "Tour" run (they're available in 155/80-15). Again, the tyres are apparently splendid wet tyres & not as prone to chunking as the CR28 Sport. (Owing, I surmise, to a stabler, more closed, tread pattern).

    If you are more interested in the dry; then I think that the Toyo R888 is still available in 185/60-13.

    Toyo R888 | the Toyo R888 reviewed and rated - TyreReviews

    cheers! Peter

    post scriptum:
    Another possibility, I see, is the Avon ZZR in 185/55-13. I know nothing about them beyond comments on Tyre Reviews from owners.
    http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Avon/ZZR.htm
    Last edited by 4cvg; 13th September 2015 at 11:21 PM.

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    Thanks for the heads up 4cvg. I ordered a set of V2 concepts for $84 each today plus the $100 cash back. Works out at $59 a tyre!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jensen View Post
    Thanks for the heads up 4cvg. I ordered a set of V2 concepts for $84 each today plus the $100 cash back. Works out at $59 a tyre!
    Once you've scubbed off the mould release compound & settled the structure in a bit (so, say, 300 km), I'd be very interested to read your report on them.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 26th August 2015 at 11:27 PM.

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    Last chance tomorrow for the Hankook deal!

    cheers! Peter

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    Just received mine today. Thanks for all your advice Peter. cheers Brian

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    again, I'd be interested to hear a report on experience once they've settled in a bit.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 1st September 2015 at 01:37 PM.

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    Just a quick one, where do you guys find Toyo R888 tyres?

    In WA nobody has them and people who stock Toyo claim there isn't a 185/60/R13 and shrug their shoulders when I tell them there is.
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    well, they seem to exist. go to:

    Toyo Tires Australia - TYRE SELECTOR

    and put in 185/60-13 and up they come

    wouldn't someone be able to ring toyo and confirm?

    cheers! peter

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    My question was if anyone actually bought these, where exactly did they buy them, because around here nobody seems to have heard they exist (which I don't doubt).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    well, you did say: '... people who stock Toyo claim there isn't a 185/60/R13... '

    so my answer is: as they seem to exist, get your recalcitrant local retailer to get on the the phone in front of you & check. This is not all that hard. My local Jax, my local Bob Jane, my local Tyrepower & even my local K-Mart Tyres have done this for me.

    I don't see the problem. Tyrepower is, for instance, a major Toyo distributor & its own website lists it as available; it can't be all that hard to get a check done.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The problem is to get someone interested in chasing something they never heard of and that doesn't show in their catalogue.

    Yeah, that's what they claim because they look in the catalogues they have from Toyo (or who knows where else?) where those tires are not listed hence they conclude "there isn't such a size" because they think the universe doesn't exist if it's not listed in their catalogues. Hence m,y question for someone with actual experience. I was hoping someone found a tyre dealer interested in more than their own catalogues (and a bit of profit). Here all these shops have only massively grooved off road tires (off all brands, including Toyo) for the cashed up bogans who drive around the city in their wank tanks.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    google brings up these guys among others

    buy ($350/tyre),ship, get locally fitted

    Contact Us

    or: 2 for $470 plus shipping:

    2 X NEW 185 60 13 Toyo R888 Semi Slick Race Tyres L K 1856013 | eBay

    et c. .........

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    Check if there is a Toyo motorsport dealer in WA. I spoke to a tyre place here a few years ago and he said that they treat the passenger and Motorsport lines differently and that he couldn't get the Motorsport tyres at a decent price.

    Demon Tweeks in the UK are good but the dollar has dived.

    I have R888s on a second set of wheels for track days in the Clio. Great tyres that don't take long to get to temp and grip but you do end up with a lot of pick up coming back into the pits. Get ready to be constantly emptying stones from the guards using them on the road... No plastic guard liners in 1975!
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah. The question was where did YOU guys buy yours.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Fellow Frogger! Jensen's Avatar
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    I got mine through a private seller on eBay. But they are 205/50R15 so a common trackday size.
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