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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Default decent 13" tires?

    Anyone know something decent in 13" ? Need to find something for the 17G on original rims.

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    I use Dunlop Le Mans LM 701 on my R12, but I have been told these are no longer available.
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Yokahama still make 13 inch tyres. A drive or their light commercial (higher profile) may suit.

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    Intended use?

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    R17 ? You know, put them on the round thingies at each corner of the car? Drive it around?

    I'll look into the yokis, Rob, thank you.

    Any replacement for the Dunlops that you know of, Col? And by the way, how good are they and how much do they cost? Money is secondary to quality, just want to budget ahead.
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Any replacement for the Dunlops that you know of, Col? And by the way, how good are they and how much do they cost? Money is secondary to quality, just want to budget ahead.
    I'm not sure what the replacement tyre is.

    The LM701's seem to be good in the wet and dry, they were $100 a corner which I think is good value for money.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Very good value.
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    'Quality' is a tad obscure: well crafted tyres can be equally high quality in terms of manufacturing tolerances & so on but optimise different parameters.

    Anyway, assuming that the rims are 4.5 x 13 (yes?) & that your intended use is simply fast "C" road, not track, work, then the priorities would normally be crispness of response, decent wet grip & un-snappy, benign behaviour on the limit. If you just want a comfortable quiet tyre that gives good fuel economy & lasts a long time then I have no suggestions to make.

    On those parameters of crispiness & benign wet grip, the choices are not as good as they were. I recently had cause to look into availability in the relevant size (175/70) & the below is derived from an earlier post reporting my findings. One tyre in particular was interesting.

    So:

    There isn't much left. The, until recently available, good ones (Conti's EcoContact3 & Bridgestone's AR10) have gone & one is left with old stuff like Kumho's KH17 (this has its enthusiasts & is not a bad choice although not a great wet tyre) and Toyo's 350 (a taut tyre but not very grippy in the wet) & new eco-tyre stuff like Yoko's BluEarth AE01 (not crisp & not wet-grippy) and Conti's ComfortContact 5 (extremely "soggy" & poor wet grip). One worry is that this size is mostly populated by these low rolling registance tyres & that quality is in tension with wet grip when achieved by compound & in tension with crisp handling when achieved by lightweight structures. Contrary to normal practice, in this case some of the older (non-LRR) types are better on our parameters. But there is a new possibility from Hankook. It is a LRR type but looks attractive anyway.

    From that earlier post

    175/70 is optimal for R12 family vehicles on standard 4.5 rims but it has also been declining in popularity & thus forming a short list of decent tyres to consider has become harder than was once the case. Various froggers enthuse about various particular tyres (in my case, Conti's EcoContact3s & Bridgestone's dual layer tread compound AR10s - both now not available and the new AR20 is not dual compound) but an intriguing new candidate might be worth consideration - to wit: Hankook's Kinergy Ex.

    Yes it's an Eco tyre designed for low rolling resistance & that is a priority in some tension with handling crispness & with wet grip (in compound sensitive conditions). Structure & compound are the key parameters for achieving low R.R.. The Ex is intriguing nonetheless as it seems to promise to have decent levels of both crispness & wet grip.

    One of the major influences on handling crispness is sidewall design & the key is to have low slip angles by having forces applied at the rim transferred to the tread without excessive twisting distortion of the sidewall. Usual ways of achieving this are two.

    One is by means of so called "flippers" - sidewall fabric turn-ups at the bead or extra fabric folds inserted at the bead area. Although not designed with handling crispness in mind, "extra load" variants of tyres usually have two sidewall plies, not one, & this extra layer can add torsional stiffness to the sidewall in much the manner of a flipper.

    The other is by so-called "fillers" - the wedge of rubber in the bead area between the sidewall ply & the turn-up of it after going around the bead wire. Vary the dimensions & stiffness of the rubber filler & one thereby affects the torsional stiffness of the sidewall.

    The Ex is intriguing in that it extends the sidewall ply turn up in the manner of a super long flipper to form a second sidewall ply. Rationale is apparently sidewall strength in resisting inpacts. This is an odd feature in a low R.R. tyre as, when low R.R. is achieved by way of structure, the sidewalls are usually very light to reduce energy wasteful intra-tyre heat generation by way of flexing. They are thus vulnerable to damage & this is one reason why some of the European "green" tyres are not coming to rough, tough Australia (we get the Pirelli P1 "ordinaire" for instance & not the more eco-orientated P1 Verde). Anyway, the Ex has effectively two ply sidewalls & that can only be to the good for handling crispness even if that's not their design purpose.

    It also has hard rubber fillers. This time explicitly meant for achieving handling crispness.

    The Hankook propaganda sheet also explicitly talks about crisp response. To see such a matter given such prominence is a bit unusual in this class of tyre; so this is promising, especially when one can see how this might be actually achieved given the structure.

    I spend some time on this because tyre sidewall torsional tautness is an important trait for the R12 family's handling feel & response.

    Hankook also make wet grip claims (as is now commonplace, they use silica in place of some carbon black as a compound filler although the detail of this is clearly directed more towards lowering R.R. whilst marginally improving wet grip compared to their unidentified reference tyre).

    No test results of the Ex at this stage but the related Kinergy Eco K425 & the Optimo K415 & K715 have generally tested well. So, all very promising looking: there's some chance of an important size for many froggers having available a tyre that both grips well enough in the wet & handles crisply. I have no direct experience of it but I suspect that it's the class leader (of what's available in Australia anyway) on these two parameters.

    There's some chance of a Tasmanian friend with an R17 fitting them &, if he does, I shall attempt to be permitted to have a fang in it in the wet. Thus, more to follow in due course perhaps.

    So, to summarize, a medium list would be:

    Hankook Ex: sounds class leading on the relevant parameters but I've not seen tests

    Kumho KH17: would be OK but some weakness in the wet

    Dunlop LM 701 / 704: the 701 has gone & the available LM704 doesn't have the same "performance tyre" rhetoric from the manufacturer

    Toyo 350: crisp but poor wet grip

    Yokohama BluEarth AE01: weakness in the wet and not crisp

    Toyo NanoEnergy 3: poor wet grip

    Michelin XM2: poor wet grip

    You won't find anything on some of these tyres but, better than anecdotal reports (including mine), is comparative tyre test results. To quote again from another post in another thread:

    I'd suggest browsing tests available at the British site Tyre Reviews. A link is below. If you go to the top right corner of the page, you'll see "(browse) by brand". Select & then scan down the list of brands to find the brand & specific tyre type you want info on. Select, & apart from a list of anecdotal reports, you'll see a list of links to tests featuring that tyre. Don't just read the awarded rank, look at the detail of the parameters of interest to you. Of particular interest is any test which has more than one of the medium list on it (though a bit of indirect evidence can be had by seeing how two not-directly-compared tyres each fare against a more widely present third tyre). Also of particular interest are tests using a tyre width & profile similar to yours (some tyres work better in some sizes than others).

    Tyre tests at tyrereviews - TyreReviews

    Were I to be buying tyres in this size, I'd get the Ex as probably the best of a none too good bunch.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 7th May 2015 at 12:51 AM.

  9. #9
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    Thank you, Peter, very informative (and depressing).

    I take it this is a review looking at what is available here, or am I wrong?

    I would expect some more range would be available elsewhere (especially Europe), but not sure how to access it. I'll have a chat to my tire supplier and extend some feelers overseas.
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    my khumo kh 17 s are simply fantastic in the wet!!!! must be different water down here.dont know all the fancy hoo ha but it works for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Anyway, assuming that the rims are 4.5 x 13 (yes?) & that your intended use is simply fast "C" road, not track, work, then the priorities would normally be crispness of response, decent wet grip & un-snappy, benign behaviour on the limit. If you just want a comfortable quiet tyre that gives good fuel economy & lasts a long time then I have no suggestions to make.

    On those parameters of crispiness & benign wet grip, the choices are not as good as they were. I recently had cause to look into availability in the relevant size (175/70) & the below is derived from an earlier post

    From that earlier post

    175/70 is optimal for R12 family vehicles on standard 4.5 rims

    cheers! Peter
    I believe the R17G had 13 x 5.5" wheels not the 4.5" of the R12, 15TS, and 17TL. This would allow 185/70 or 185/65 tyres which might open up the choices a little.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post

    ......but an intriguing new candidate might be worth consideration - to wit: Hankook's Kinergy Ex.

    Yes it's an Eco tyre designed for low rolling resistance & that is a priority in some tension with handling crispness & with wet grip (in compound sensitive conditions). Structure & compound are the key parameters for achieving low R.R.. The Ex is intriguing nonetheless as it seems to promise to have decent levels of both crispness & wet grip.

    Peter,

    Just chipping in with my 2c worth on this tyre.
    Had Hankook Kinergy as standard fitment on my daughters car.
    It is a light car, VW Up!, supposedly 880kg.
    Not a fan.
    Sidewalls are too stiff.
    Ended up ditching the whole lot (within a month) for another eco tyre TOYO Teo's.
    In my opinion, better grip, and not as harsh.
    Steering responce is the same.

    I feel eco tyres trade adhesion for economy.
    This is ok on a modern car with all the acronyms abs etc.
    However, on an older vehicle, tyres should be grippy.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Well spotted, the rims are 5.5".
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    Quote Originally Posted by potentz View Post
    my khumo kh 17 s are simply fantastic in the wet!!!! must be different water down here.dont know all the fancy hoo ha but it works for me.
    I simply summarise the test results. Note that the judgements in those tests are comparative ones. I have no personal experience of the KH17 as clearly better options have always obtained in tyre sizes I sought.

    cheers! Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by 85Fuego View Post
    Peter,

    Just chipping in with my 2c worth on this tyre.
    Had Hankook Kinergy as standard fitment on my daughters car.
    It is a light car, VW Up!, supposedly 880kg.
    Not a fan.
    Sidewalls are too stiff.
    Ended up ditching the whole lot (within a month) for another eco tyre TOYO Teo's.
    In my opinion, better grip, and not as harsh.
    Steering responce is the same.

    I feel eco tyres trade adhesion for economy.
    This is ok on a modern car with all the acronyms abs etc.
    However, on an older vehicle, tyres should be grippy.
    Ecotyres do trade wet grip for economy but some manufacturers manage the detail of the trade-off in a wet-grippier way than others. As I remarked, the Ex looked promising enough to give a try.

    Have a read through:
    Hankook K425 Kinergy Eco | the Hankook K425 Kinergy Eco reviewed and rated - TyreReviews

    On the Toyo, there simply isn't much data available but Toyo themselves rate its wet grip below the Nano-energy & that tyre did dismally in a wet braking test. So . . .

    Summer tyre test by AutoBild (185/60R15; 03.2015)212 | Laneks

    cheers! Peter

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    5.5" rims help in two ways.
    First, as Alan says, you can fit wider tyres.
    Second, even with 175/70, you pre-tension the side walls with the wider rim & get crisper response than on the 4.5 with the same pressure.

    I have had cause to think this one through too as my warm 1330 Moke has 5.5 x 13 wheels & its Yoko A539s are about to date expire yet are not available anymore.

    The A539 size I fitted was 185/60 (replacing much loved 185/65 MXF Michelins & a string of 185/70 tyres). I like 185/60 but there is now only one (non track day) tyre available which I'd consider fitting: Hanhook's Ventus V2 Concept. I've seen no tests of it but it's Hobson's choice. (I think that Alan Moore would include another tyre: the Falken ZE912 which he has on his "750".) As a track day style tyre, one can get the Toyo R888 & a very wet-focused Avon; generally speaking, the compounding of such tyres is such that they're quite good in merely slick conditions but they struggle in deeper water.

    185/65-13 has nothing available. It's a dead size A pity because it was a nice gearing-preserving update for 175/70.

    So, what of 185/70?

    Basically, this size is even more obsolescent than 175/70. As with 175/70, one can get the KH17, the Ex, the XM2 so at least the first two are promising. Of interest in this size is that one can also get a seemingly not half bad earlier Hankook: the K715. Hankook itself chooses to label its merits as handling & wet grip & a relevant test is at the below link. (Note its performance in comparison to the KH17 as both are included.)

    So, what of going overseas? You do get more choice but, with the possible exception of Uniroyal's RainExpert 3 in 175/70, nothing that is worth the freight in my view.

    So where does that all leave us? My own decision in my Moke's similar case is clear: I like the extra crispness of 185/60 & I would move to that & try the Hankook Ventus V2 Concept if you just want a road tyre.

    Or, for a bit more comfort, go for 185/70 & fit Hankook's K715 or Ex.

    Or, for lighter steering, fit 175/70. I'd still try the Ex but the KH17 has its champion.

    Whatever you end up doing, an anecdotal report would be intertesting to see.

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 9th May 2015 at 09:38 PM.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I promise.

    Not sure when I'll be able to report driving impressions, but I'll update on purchase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Ecotyres do trade wet grip for economy but some manufacturers manage the detail of the trade-off in a wet-grippier way than others. As I remarked, the Ex looked promising enough to give a try.

    Have a read through:
    Hankook K425 Kinergy Eco | the Hankook K425 Kinergy Eco reviewed and rated - TyreReviews

    On the Toyo, there simply isn't much data available but Toyo themselves rate its wet grip below the Nano-energy & that tyre did dismally in a wet braking test. So . . .

    Summer tyre test by AutoBild (185/60R15; 03.2015)212 | Laneks

    cheers! Peter
    Peter,
    Understand what you are saying.
    Good to see other reviews, you must start the comparison process somewhere.
    I, myself, rate them the other way around.
    Hence the 2c review.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Hi guys, found these:

    SP SPORT LM704, Dunlop, Australia

    Any ideas?

    I made a call today, seems only Yokohama Blue Earth is an option in 13".
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    I bought some 13" Yokohamas from a UK vendor and had them couriered in with UPS. They were not available locally.
    I could probably look up the details.
    Cheers,
    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Hi guys, found these:

    SP SPORT LM704, Dunlop, Australia

    Any ideas?

    I made a call today, seems only Yokohama Blue Earth is an option in 13".
    I think that my ideas are already expressed but I wouldn't get either of these.

    cheers! Peter

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    [QUOTE=4cvg;1350428]<snip>

    Dunlop LM 701 / 704: the 701 has gone & the available LM704 doesn't have the same "performance tyre" rhetoric from the manufacturer

    <snip>


    Whilst browsing Tyre Reviews for something else, I came across a test for the LM704; Tyre Review's summary of the test's remarks on the Dunlop is:

    '9th: Dunlop SP Sport LM704
    Total: 64.8 / Dry: 15 / Wet: 20 / Comfort: 9 / Rolling Resistance: 6 / Toughness: 9 / Overall: 5.8
    Positive: Price, strong sidewall
    Negative: Extremely low wet grip, low resistance to aquaplaning, high rolling resistance
    Overall: Not available in the UK market, Auto Review found the Dunlop LM704's dangerous thanks to a shocking performance in the wet. OK for hot climates with pot holed roads that don't see rain. No where else. '

    This sounds off-putting (9th was last & the next worst, Bridgestone's T001, managed 40 points in the wet, yet was also criticised for weak wet performance).

    It was a weird test by Auto Review in that the mix of tyres was a matter of comparing apples & oranges (or, in the case of the LM704, lemons). The Dunlop was obviously outclassed. Also, the size was 235/45-17 & tyres can perform differently in different sizes in pattern-dependent wet tests like aquaplaning; 175/70-13 might fare better but one still has compound-dependent wet grip failure to generate concern.

    All those caveats allowed then, it still looks damning for the Dunlop - so, avoid?

    I think so, even though I can't imagine any of the above short-listed tyres faring all that well against the competitors in that test. My only reference point from personal experience is the T001, which I have on the rear of my R8 in 185/60-14. I don't like its structure but have no complaints about its wet grip. (That said, it's a bit worse than the excellent, but no longer available, Conti EcoContact3 which preceded the T001 on the R8.)

    So, at this stage of things, as originally suggested, I continue to think the Hankook Kinergy Ex is best bet currently in this size for crispness & wet grip, especially under braking.

    cheers! Peter

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    Anyone had experience with Maxxis tyres? They have a 175/60-13. The Tyrepower guys reckon they are good ,sell lots (not 13").
    Cheers Brian

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    I don't mean to rain on your 3 stud 13" wheel parade, but I keep coming upon this in google land.

    http://www.renaultclubqld.com.au/doc...204%20Stud.pdf

    If It's a matter of just having the original hubs drilled... wouldn't that be easier in you know.. the long term?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brianbcs View Post
    Anyone had experience with Maxxis tyres? They have a 175/60-13. The Tyrepower guys reckon they are good ,sell lots (not 13").
    Cheers Brian
    No experience directly as I wouldn't choose to fit them. Reason? General poor reputation of the brand for wet grip.

    Why not go up a size to 185/60?

    cheers! Peter
    Last edited by 4cvg; 15th September 2015 at 10:57 PM.

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