The dry sump Gordini motor. - Page 4
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Thread: The dry sump Gordini motor.

  1. #76
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    JohnW, sorry to get back so late, I never saw your question. That is a puzzle and will remain one. All I can think of is that it is a pirate tensioner and they made it slightly different. The shorter chain is clearly a wrong packed item with the correct p/no.

    Inbetween the Matra work I managed to scrape a few free minutes together and completed the bottom end. This can be called a final assembly unless I have to remove something to fit something else. I'm sure it will happen!

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    Next step is the head. That will take some time and to complete because the new bigger valves will require bigger seats and then to match the ports with the bigger valves to have smooth curves. The valves needs shortening as well. Maybe I'll fabricate some sort of chain cover for the pump?

    Regards, Frans.



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  2. #77
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    Wonderful stuff Frans!

    I built a modest cover to protect my fingers from the fan on my new 6V alternator on the 4CV but then, if you had an English hillclimb special like the famous Spider, no guards at all.....

    I might be your way in the first half of December.

    Cheers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The dry sump Gordini motor.-alternator-fitted-ready-run.jpg   The dry sump Gordini motor.-p7030301.jpg  
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    JohnW

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  3. #78
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Johnno,
    Do yourself a favour and fit a nyloc nut to the cover stud.
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  4. #79
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    Hi Frans, stunning work so far, very detailed and well thought out.

    I have a question about your distributor blank. Does the blank locate the oil pump/distributor driveshaft? If not, what keeps the shaft positively located?

    The reason for the question is that I'm running distributorless ignition and still have the the original distributor in place purely for shaft location reasons.

    Woz

  5. #80
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woznaldo View Post
    Hi Frans, stunning work so far, very detailed and well thought out.

    I have a question about your distributor blank. Does the blank locate the oil pump/distributor driveshaft? If not, what keeps the shaft positively located?

    The reason for the question is that I'm running distributorless ignition and still have the the original distributor in place purely for shaft location reasons.

    Woz
    Hi Woz,

    In this engine it is just a blank plate. I have no distributor and no internal oil pump. In my other engine that is in the race car I still have the bottom part of the distributor in place to keep the internal oil pump drive in position. It looks the same but the distributor has been machined and cut at the same height as the plug you see here. I just cut it to look neat.

    I hope I've answered your question.

    Frans.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi Woz,

    In this engine it is just a blank plate. I have no distributor and no internal oil pump. In my other engine that is in the race car I still have the bottom part of the distributor in place to keep the internal oil pump drive in position. It looks the same but the distributor has been machined and cut at the same height as the plug you see here. I just cut it to look neat.

    I hope I've answered your question.

    Frans.
    As you can see from the time of the post it was well past bed time and I failed to see that the dry sump system would delete the original oil pump!

    Thanks for the reply all the same.

    Woz

  7. #82
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    Hello Frans,
    I have just discovered your amazing thread about Building a real Renault Gordini race engine. I`m German and Iīm going to do it as well, I use the R5 engine which I increase to 1768 ccm. I do engines since more than 30 years and I will state some things which may be helpful or at least to think about.
    I`m worried that your Nascar oil pumps are way too big for your engine. The small Renault engine will need about max. 30L/min at full power, a Nascar engine will - estimated - need almost 80 or 100 L/min. That wouldnīt be a smaller problem as a pump too small, of course, but you have to bypass a huge amount of flow over the relief valve. I don`t even know if it will work at all to Bypass such a big amount with the cross sections which are present. Anyway, you will have a big power amount to drive the huge pumps. The oil pressure will be much too high, so you will have to limit it by bypassing the flow.

    Apart from that, I would support the idea to use a belt to drive the pump. The chain might overheat because ist behind the engine and not in the airstream as a bike chain, but I donīt know surely. At the Renault 5 Turbo works Rallye cars, they use as well a hain but it was integrated inside the timing chain housing and was lubricated as desired.

    Frans, I really wouldnīt be a smartass but would like to tell you about my thoughts. In worst case, the big amounts of bypassed oil will create huge aeration and foaming of your oil and will make more problems as which you tried to solve by deciding for a dry sump system. I really wouldnīt advice against a dry sump, but in 1990, I developped DTM engines in Germany and a dry sump system was prohibited at all. Our engine was a 3 L Opel with about 425 bhp , 10000 rpm and we had never an engine failure due to the lubrication (rather because of other stuff ;-)) Our G-Forces were also in the 2 G range at that time.

    Cheers
    Udo

  8. #83
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    Me again,
    sorry, I might be confused by thinking that your pump is from an Nascar, didnīt you mention it? If the pressure section is smaller from another engine, my objections are irrelevant of course, sorry for the confusion. Which wide is the pressure section of your pump? And which brand?

    About the sealer bottom rings of the liners:
    I donīt use them at all. My bore is 80 mm, thereīs no space for them anyway. Iīm going to seal my liners just with silicone and pay well attention to the protrusion on top of the liners. The flexibility of the sealers is unknown and the preload onto the liner might decrease, causing potentially head gasket failures.

    Anyway, very nice workmanship of your engine, credit to your skills !

    Cheers

    Udo
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  9. #84
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Udo,

    Positive criticism can always be appreciated! Thank you for looking at it.

    The NASCAR pumps will be used by 2 of my friends copying me at a later stage. None of us are motor mechanics and will appreciate tips from other experiences. I know that they have made their pumps smaller because the pumps are in segments. they were 2 pressure segments and 5 scavenging segments. It has been reduced to 1 pressure and 2 scavenging segments.

    My pump is an old pump dating back many years. I am using the chain because it was chain driven originally. I will have to do testing and if it over heats then I will change to belt drive. It should be easy to adapt the belt drive gears. The pump has no name on it and I can measure the pump width tonight when I am at home.

    Using no sealer rings at the bottom of the sleeves is common use for me as in the past we used to have the top of the block shaved with the required amount to get sleeve protrusion. In my case I'm using shims because it is cheaper and because I have a reliable race engine in my race car, this is an economy build :-)

    Regards, Frans.
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  10. #85
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    Frans, didnīt you think about fitting your dry sump tank in the front trunk to optimise the weight distribution? Some more work, but well worth the effort.

    The Nascars usually use 5 or 6 sections and probably a bigger pressure one, you are right. So far I think your pump layout should work.

    Udo

  11. #86
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    Frans, did you end up the build of the dry sump system ??? any updates??? I'm thinking to do the same but in a 2.0 lts J6R engine that is currently mounted in my Renault 8

    Regards From Mexico
    Arturo
    Last edited by ducato796m; 2nd December 2017 at 04:42 AM.

  12. #87
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi ducato,

    No, I haven't finished it yet. Coincidentally I have just received a box full of hoses and spares a week ago from a friend that will help me a lot in the completion. I have not given up on it but my excuses are the Matra Jet6 restoration, the race car engine failed after 7 years racing, then after the rebuild I broke the gearbox and then with the first test race last Sunday I was involved in a "get together" that is forcing me to do some panelbeating now .

    Outstanding for the completion is the cylinder head that needs new valve seats for the bigger valves, valve guides and maybe a skim to get rid of the rough marks.

    Thanks for the interest but I hope to start soon.

    Regards, Frans.
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  13. #88
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    Thanks Franz for putting all this stuff on here !
    This thread never fails to interest me and obviously lots of others around the world. No back biting or acrimony either which is unusual on a forum
    We watch with interest a craftsman at work !
    Jaahn
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  14. #89
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    Like your work on the dry sump idea. I have heard that oil pressure problems occur not only in the R8G motor but also in the Alpine V6 A310 and GTA V6 during hard racing due to their shallow sumps. I wonder why you did not use the alloy sump sold by Mecaparts on the R8G as it has a similar baffle arrangement that you have made for your sump?

  15. #90
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    If the Mecaparts sump was used, or any normal sump, the engine would not have a dry sump. The purpose of a dry sump is to have the oil in a large tank away from the engine. Benefits of not having a sump on the bottom of the engine are many, including more oil, cooler oil, less drag on the crank as it sloshes through a sump full of oil, less frothing and aeration of the oil, no oil surge since the pickup is a different arrangement to a normal pickup, more ground clearance allowing the engine to be lowered.

    Frans could probably add to the list but he seems to have a lot of work to do at the moment. Also, seeing how he operates, although it is not necessary in this case I would expect he would fabricate a sump before spending a lot of money on one from Meca.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustamif View Post
    If the Mecaparts sump was used, or any normal sump, the engine would not have a dry sump. The purpose of a dry sump is to have the oil in a large tank away from the engine. Benefits of not having a sump on the bottom of the engine are many, including more oil, cooler oil, less drag on the crank as it sloshes through a sump full of oil, less frothing and aeration of the oil, no oil surge since the pickup is a different arrangement to a normal pickup, more ground clearance allowing the engine to be lowered.

    Frans could probably add to the list but he seems to have a lot of work to do at the moment. Also, seeing how he operates, although it is not necessary in this case I would expect he would fabricate a sump before spending a lot of money on one from Meca.
    If I recall, he's posted with photos of that very sump. As usual for Frans, lovely work!
    JohnW

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  17. #92
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    Bazzamac, Like I said in the start of this thread, it was like a " I dare you to be successful" and with the ZA car it was more a challenge because it ran on 10" full slicks.

    I could have used the MecaParts sump but.......trying to be humble, I think mine is better with closer fitting parts and the MecaParts sump rely on a bigger volume of oil. We've all heard of running on a shoestring budget, I am running on a dentalfloss budget .

    The dry sump is a new venture for me as well, so again I'm trying to do it with my own fabrication skills as the whole car is done. It is easy to buy and bolt on as the youngsters do nowadays with their Jappers and then they say "I built it".

    Regards, Frans.
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  18. #93
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    Hi Frans. Understand you are operating on a tight budget and build it yourself philosophy which is great. I thought there may be a technical reason for not using the Mecaparts sump apart from the desirability of dry sumping, some of which are mentioned by Bustumif.

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