The dry sump Gordini motor. - Page 3
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Thread: The dry sump Gordini motor.

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post

    Then I started on the push rods. These will be made out of 1/4" stainless steel tubing.]
    Frans, how did you replicate the knobs on the end of the SS rods, or are they the original ends pressed in to the end of the SS tube?

    ta

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    Frans, how did you replicate the knobs on the end of the SS rods, or are they the original ends pressed in to the end of the SS tube?

    ta
    Hi Alexander,

    I have collected a lot of non crossflow pushrods with time. I measured the ID of the stainless tube and then I turned the heads off in the lathe as in the picture so that they are a press fit into the tube.

    The only drawback of this is that you have to do 16 non crossflow pushrods to make 8 G pushrods because the G has ball ends on both sides.



    Regards, Frans.
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    Nice work Frans. I have a question however. Have you considered how you will clean out the tank? It will eventually get rubbish in it. One of the things I've learned with racing 205's is the need for easy cleaning. Thus when I made my tank I started off with a flange and then worked up and down from there.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The dry sump Gordini motor.-dry-sump-tank-breather.jpg  

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  4. #54
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    Hi Peter.
    I am glad you asked the question. The 4th thread on page 1 shows the tanks and the drain plug at the bottom. I reckoned that the tank could be cleaned by flushing it with some diesel or petrol. Do you think that the drain plug is too small?
    The bottom of the tank is a little cone shaped for the grid or sludge to settle in with the outlet to the pump a little higher.
    Regards. Frans

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    It looks small, difficult to get shavings out of. I'd make it M18x1.5, same as O2 sensors. Easy to get copper washers for. Add a screen on the inlet and the outlet.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  6. #56
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    Thanks for the info Peter and the reason. the tanks are still with Ross and I can't remember the sizes although it won't be far off.

    To add to the delay........ The rod bearings that arrived is STD and not 0.25mm. So there we go again.

    Regards
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  7. #57
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    Hi All,

    At last it all came together. Everything for the bottom end is now ready for balancing. Conrods, pistons, crank is blueprinted to bearings, pressure plate pulley and flywheel will be at the balancer tomorrow and I might just get them back before Christmas. I have just put the flywheel on a killer diet and it weighs in at 3.678 kg. Attached photos of my doings and screwings.





    Regards
    Frans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi All, At last it all came together. Everything for the bottom end is now ready for balancing. Conrods, pistons, crank is blueprinted to bearings, pressure plate pulley and flywheel will be at the balancer tomorrow and I might just get them back before Christmas. I have just put the flywheel on a killer diet and it weighs in at 3.678 kg. Attached photos of my doings and screwings. Regards Frans
    Very nice Frans. Love your scales. Nothing to go wrong with those electronics, and very accurate!
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi All,

    At last it all came together. Everything for the bottom end is now ready for balancing. Conrods, pistons, crank is blueprinted to bearings, pressure plate pulley and flywheel will be at the balancer tomorrow and I might just get them back before Christmas. I have just put the flywheel on a killer diet and it weighs in at 3.678 kg. Attached photos of my doings and screwings.





    Regards
    Frans
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Very nice Frans. Love your scales. Nothing to go wrong with those electronics, and very accurate!
    More great work there Frans.

    Yes my mum has a set of scales like that, been around longer than I can remember.
    Regards Col

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    I forgot to ask Frans: do you not get the crank and the flywheel balanced as a unit? Not a criticism at all, just a curious question. I've only been there once, with my R8 engine which I had balanced before I built it back in 1988. The shop insisted on doing flywheel, crankshaft and clutch as an item. I've since needed a new clutch, so it is not balanced now as a unit, but it certainly doesn't feel different, but I rarely exceed 5,000 rpm of course.

    Hope you and yours have an excellent Christmas.
    JohnW

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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I forgot to ask Frans: do you not get the crank and the flywheel balanced as a unit?
    Correct John, I meant in the thread that all is ready and that includes the crank that is now machined to 0.25 mm. The way I wrote it is a bit unclear.
    Frans
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  12. #62
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    Hi All,

    I hoped that the balancing could be completed by Christmas or just thereafter because my balancing guy was working through the holidays, but then nothing much went right with this project and I got the balanced parts yesterday, second day after I was back at work. However just having them feels good and now I can start the assembly of the bottom end in my spare time. I will update this thread now and again as I progress. There is no rush for this to be completed because I will not race the next season. That time will be spent on the Matra.







    Regards, Frans
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  13. #63
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    "no rush for this to be completed because I will not race the next season. That time will be spent on the Matra."

    That sounds familiar - my wife says the same thing to me as well - only it's about an R8, not a Matra!
    KB


  14. #64
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    Hi,

    I started this week with some fiddly bits and did a dry assembly of the bottom end. That allowed me to start cutting the template for the new scraper plate. Remember the old one was useless because of the cracked crank. I have stayed with the standard shape and the scraper plate looks completely different. Mounting it will remain the same as in thread #46 where the scraper plate actually will become the one side of the sump gasket and the other side will have a real gasket. The 2 rubber strips over the mains and timing cover remains as well.



    With the sump fitted it looked like the gasket was sealing all round but I will still use gasket sealer when closing up permanently.





    Then I stripped it down again and started with the rings. Testing the rings in the bores proved that they were too big. When I had issues with the race car about 14 months ago when the radiator hose popped off and I overheated it, I had to re-size rings because I couldn't find the proper size. I made a small setup on my jewelers lathe to grind them square so that when the gap closes up it is a proper parallel gap so that when they heat up and close the gap, it will be proper to create the best seal.



    I hope you can make out whats going on there. See the ring size in the sleeve that is too small? the before and after pictures.





    The gap is increased to 0.017" which is a calculated 0.0055" per inch bore. With this complete I can now start with the cam assembly and cam timing.

    Regards Frans.
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  15. #65
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    Depends if it's 1st or 2nd ring?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Depends if it's 1st or 2nd ring?
    I made both the same Peter?

    Frans.
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    Nice.... I too am looking forward to Peter's next post!
    JohnW

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  18. #68
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    Oh. Normally top ring has less than the 2nd ring to avoid ring flutter. ie for your application,
    top ring = 0.0045" x bore
    2nd ring = 0.0055" x bore

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    So, you make sure there is imbalance between the minute leakages past the two rings? This is sophisticated territory! Very interesting and thanks.
    JohnW

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  20. #70
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    Thanks for that Peter, although it is too late now. I don't think I have ever done it like that but I will do it in future. Apart from ring flutter what negatives can I expect? I have never broken rings yet.

    I do have very thick rings, 2mm first and second and oil is 4mm. It is unfortunate but because the pistons (Fiat 1500) that I use date back to the mid '60s. Because of this and not being forged pistons I have to limit the rpm. This motor will be limited at about 7750.

    Frans.
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  21. #71
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    Only 7750 rpm. ONLY!!
    JohnW

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  22. #72
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    In the reliability stakes, gear driven is best, multirow chain driven is next best, single row chain next and belt last.
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Frans,
    On my Mahle/Fiat pistons, I always used Perfect Circle rings, with a chrome top ring, with 0.3mm ring gap on both. And all 6 motors never broke rings at about 7000-7200 RPM. (Tp 807), and 1475cc (R12) used CSchmit/Mazda with PC rings as well, at about 7400 max and never broke rings.

    There are so many other suppliers now though, it is difficult to get information on them.

    Ray
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  24. #74
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    A slow progress but at least some progress that happens when I'm bored. New chain and tensioner has been fitted and with that came more frustrations. (I should number all these hiccups). When the chain arrived, a 1100 chain, it was 2 links too short. Pitch and width perfect. So I thought bugger that, split the new chain and add 2 old links. That made the chain a perfect fit. If I did wrong then so be it, I had enough of sending faulty items back.

    Then I fitted the tensioner, or at least tried because it didn't fit. I had to grind a bit off at the back of the little piston that goes into the housing, I did a quick test and found it good until I added the spring and the rotating ratchet. Again it didn't fit because it protruded at the back. Then I had to put the housing in the milling machine and make the cylinder a little deeper. Now it worked!!

    With everything in place I did the cam timing to my specs and soon I'll be able to complete the bottom end. This is a saga isn't it?





    Then it felt so good I did a bit cosmetic as well and fitted the new engine number plaque that I had made.



    Regards
    Frans
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  25. #75
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    Lovely Frans. I'm puzzled, as you were I expect, by that problem with the new timing chain tensioner. Is the 812 block a little different in that area?

    Hope to see you in mid-November approximately. Have to plan ahead!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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