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Thread: The dry sump Gordini motor.

  1. #26
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    That's not the only possibility of having two (sets of) grooves, and doesn't imply the two have anything in common apart from being part of one pulley. 205GTI Euro crankshaft pulleys are like that. One poly-vee section for power steering (or A/C?) and one single V section of smaller diameter for alternator/whatever.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    The English language, unlike almost all other languages IS a perfect science. There are enough words to chose from to make it so!
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  3. #28
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    The English language, unlike almost all other languages IS a perfect science. There are enough words to chose from to make it so!
    Hmmm. How do you explain homonyms then?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    The English language, unlike almost all other languages IS a perfect science. There are enough words to chose from to make it so!
    The number of words available with very slight variations in meaning is the problem. It is only perfect if the writer uses the correct words to clearly state their intended meaning. And unfortunately I am not always one of them. Sometimes, a few days later, I reread what I have written on A/F only to realise I could have said it a bit differently or more clearly.

  5. #30
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    Good point,it's easy to get off topic!

  6. #31
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Meh, we're merely filling up time and keeping Frans' thread at the top so he doesn't need to look it up when he's back with some more progress report.

    How do you delete your own posts?
    Frans likes this.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #32
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Robmac.......You are asking questions that I can't explain. It is a chain drive because it was a chain drive when I got it. Then maybe some stubbornness from my side trying to be more authentic when it doesn't matter I keep on doing before asking and the worst of all is that Johan gave me a pump from a Nascar that was virtually brand new. I returned it with the above ideas of this thread in my mind. Ross has that pump now and it will go on his Dauphine one day. The speed of the chain? All I can say is that it will run at exactly the same speed as the cam chain. It is old Renault cam gears.

    Plugs.
    I have a few holes that is not going to have any use after this mod. 1) Is the dipstick. I drilled that to the next suitable size which was then tapped M10 and a Loctited grub screw will go in there. 2) The oil pump outlet into the filter. The nearest size turned out to be Ĺ” WW and that is what it became. 3) Then the dizzy hole. That is now plugged as well and there will be an empty space in there because it is not going to have neither oil pump drive nor dizzy drive.









    Regards.
    Frans.
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  8. #33
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    Love the finish on the machined blanking plates Frans. Very nice.

    Now, regarding exposed chains, the attached photos show a real exposed chain!! That car held the outright record at Shelsey Walsh Hillclimb in England for years in the 1920s, and is still competing. Behold the fabulous GN Spider.

    There are two, very similar cars with different exposed chains. Very loud and fast. I wouldn't stand beside....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails The dry sump Gordini motor.-p7030327.jpg   The dry sump Gordini motor.-p7030299.jpg  
    JohnW

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  9. #34
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, nice blanking especially the contoured one on the pump hole. I hate generic square plates over round holes and have fabricated my own for the 17G engine, just like yours. Polished and zinc plated gold they look like a million bucks.

    If I am allowed a comment, I would say these plates and the rest of your work has a certain feel (a zeigeist of sorts if you will) the exposed chain breaks away from a bit.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 19th January 2015 at 09:17 PM.
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    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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    Franz I noticed you blocked off the distributor hole as well so now you got me curious as to what ignition system you are planning on using ?? Love the pictures and your engine build up .

    Manic GT

  11. #36
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manicgt View Post
    Franz I noticed you blocked off the distributor hole as well so now you got me curious as to what ignition system you are planning on using ?? Love the pictures and your engine build up .

    Manic GT
    I will be using a MegaJolt system as with my current engine in the race car. After 4-5 years it hasn't played up yet and Johan and Ross are using it as well. If you don't know it, I can elaborate on it.
    Frans
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  12. #37
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Pistons and rods.
    The pistons have been machined and the conrods re-sized to take the Fiat gudgeon pins. There might be a little more machining to be done when I get the cylinder head back just to fine tune the compression ratio. That I will make 12.5:1 as the existing motor. It proved to be a fairly good recipe for reliability and performance.
    The pockets in the pistons are already a little bigger because of the bigger valves that are going in. You can see the nice fit and that is exactly where the valve will be with relation to the piston because I did a dry assembly and inserted a 7mm punch through the valve guides and made a pock mark on each of the pistons. I have made a drawing way back to mark the pocket positions but I wanted it 100% this time because of the limited clearance with the bigger valves.

    punch marks on the piston.


    Before and after.


    The new bigger valves.


    Regards
    Frans.
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  13. #38
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Shims.
    The shims are done and cut and after installing the sleeves and making sure they sit rock bottom on the pedestals, I held a straight edge across the sleeves. Then I started feeling the gaps with my feeler gauge and noted them down. I ended up with 3 different sizes of 2 x 0.004”, 1 x 0.007” and a last one of 0.002”. These shims will now elevate the sleeves back to the required 0.004” plus the little ridge that I cut in the top is another 0.004” and that will force itself deeper into the fire ring of the gasket for better sealing. That is now cut and waiting for installation. I will only start that next week because time is now a little scarce.





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  14. #39
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    It's going to look a very neat motor, with all the hang-ons now missing. Can't wait to see the end result, and how hard it actually goes!
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  15. #40
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    Lovely Frans. How did you cut the shims?

    With a smear of silicone, that is obviously the way of dealing with the copper ring types on the Ventoux engines, which I know from measurement squish by 4 thou (0.1 mm) when the head is tightened and run for 23 years. There are plenty of thin ones around (they came in 4 thicknesses) but the maximum thickness one is rare to unobtainable.

    Exciting engine.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  16. #41
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    What is the shim material, Frans?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #42
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Simon.........the hang-ons will be replaced by all he pipes going to and from the motor.

    John....I use tin snips to cut it. I think the copper gaskets are annealed as well and that is good to seal where you might have unevenness in the surface.

    SZ.....It is steel shims.

    Frans.
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  18. #43
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    Your good with the tin snips!!!

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    John....I use tin snips to cut it. I think the copper gaskets are annealed as well and that is good to seal where you might have unevenness in the surface.

    Frans.
    I find good scissors work best on shim. Tin snips leave a slight bent edge. I got a pair of excellent Sidchrome scissors for Christmas. They are brilliant. But Frans with the quality work you are doing you don't need my input.

  20. #45
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    Sidchrome scissors sound good. Is there a model number please? I might indulge....
    JohnW

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  21. #46
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Started this weekend playing with the dry sump motor again and I got to make the scraper plate and a push rod!

    I had this idea in mind to make the scraper plate from Teflon. It can take the heat and if there is touching any parts then it won't create metal filings. It was a bit of imagineering on the mounting method of the plate. At first I thought of drilling and tapping into the main bearing mounting beams that runs across from the side of the block to the center , but decided against that because I think it will make the beam weaker. So the final idea came to mind and I am now using it as the "gasket" on the one side and the other side will have a real gasket. There are 3 x 3mm small roll pins to keep the scraper plate in the exact position and when tightening the sump the roll pins will be able to slide deeper and allow the sump to sit tight on the Teflon. I drilled and tapped the bigends and made little plates holding the other end in as in the last photo. We will see if this works.







    Then I started on the push rods. These will be made out of 1/4" stainless steel tubing. Johan had a few working so I will say it is going to be ok. As we all know, the lighter the valve train the less spring tension is required for more rpm's. When I finished the first one I weighed it and the compared it with others. A genuine long G push rod weighs 35g, the ones I made from Titanium (solid) weighs 25g and the new one from stainless steel is hollow and weighs 25g as well. Pleasant surprise because now my push rods will cost me about $9.00. The damaged one is the Titanium one middle is original and then the SS one. The weight gain is 28.6%.



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  22. #47
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    Nice Frans.

    I have an ignorant question. How do the lower parts of the cylinder walls get lubricated with the dry sump arrangement?

    Nice pushrods!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  23. #48
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi All,

    John, I can't answer you. My mind tells me that there is the same amount of oil dripping down from the head and that is splashed up to the cylinder walls. My wind-age tray prevented splash feed in any case.

    Now this engine is the one that came out of the Matra. I have moaned and bitched previously about the poor workmanship of whoever built the engine as a race engine. The Matra was prepped for a race car hence the plastic windscreen. The pistons in there were unknown and so I saved them for the dry sump engine. When it came to sorting out, these pistons were pushing the compression ratio up to about 20:1. It would never have worked.

    When I checked the head the exhaust ports were huge, and tapered to the inside. With the extractor being standard the exhaust gases would have been restricted with a huge square orifice that would prevent flow. That is why I had to make inserts that fitted in there to bring the ports back to standard as in the Matra restoration thread. With the engine in and "ready" to race 3 of the 5 extractor studs were stripped! Etc etc.

    The block were cleaned and I found the cam bushes were shot. I made a special tool for the removal and refitting of that and it was line bored. The line boring went horribly wrong and one bush was oval, so I had to do it over again. The engine number plate was removed but the rivet holes weren't closed. Imagine the oil leak when the rotation of the cam forced the oil through the 2 rivet hole! At last everything were replaced and I started and made the the scraper plate for the crank that was in the Matra. Lightened and knife edged.

    Then on completion I took the components in for balancing so that I can start on the bottom end. I got a call from the engine balancer saying that the flange of the crank where the flywheel bolts to, is not running true. I had the crank crack tested and yes, the crank was cracked. So in the end there were basically nothing that I could re-use from the Matra engine.

    I found another crank that wasn't perfect and it needs a regrind on all the journals. So Ebay helped out and the bearings arrived today. I will now assemble the rods and mains and take the block in for grinding as per rod and main-bearing dimensions. (semi Blueprinted).
    And that is the reason the dry sump engine is so far behind schedule.

    Regards. Frans.
    Old enough to know better
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  24. #49
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    I admire your perseverance, Frans. Keep up the good work.
    Keith

  25. #50
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    It really shows you can't trust many engines unless you rebuild them yourself or really know the rebuilder, doesn't it. What a pain.

    Saw Harry yesterday at the Rear Engine Car Day in Perth - he's looking well, as is the Alconi R10!

    Good luck with it as the right bits finally come together.
    JohnW

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    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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