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  1. #1
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    Default More 4CV questions, Engine

    I thought I had all my leaks fixed, but I've still got a drip at the generator end. It is not coming from the timing cover.

    I am pretty sure it's the gasket behind the engine mount plate. So I'm in the process of pulling the head to get the cam out.

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    I'm having to use a bit of force to move the rocker shaft, which is 2 pieces on my car. Am I missing someting, or should I just keep hitting the end. A hardwood dowel won't do the job, I think I'll go find a brass rod.

    More questions to come, I'm sure.

    Thanks, Alan

  2. #2
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    It is a bit fiddly, but there is no need to remove the rocker shafts to get the head bolts out. There is a special tool that give access to the head bolts through the rocker gear, but by removing the rocker adjusting screw, the arm itself can then be pushed along the shaft , the pushrod pulled out, and the arm folded out of the way allowing space for a socket to undo the obscured head bolts.

    Once the head is off, if the rocker shafts still have to be removed, take out the small set screws retaining the shafts in the head, then note the shafts are threaded on the ends, a bolt with a large washer can be screwed into the ends of the shaft extracting each rocker shaft through the hole in the head.

    Where exactly is the leak coming from in the first place though, any pictures you can post up?
    1963 Renault R4 Van
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  3. #3
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    I agree with Simon.

    That area around the crankshaft pulley is hard to seal properly and hard to inspect.

    It could be coming (assuming it is oil) from the corner of the sump gasket, a tricky thing to seal with the engine in the car, but it can be done. It could also be what you suspect, the paper gasket behind the engine mount plate.

    I can't remember what you've done on the engine, but you are getting to the stage of it almost being better to pull the engine out. If you are going to drop the sump and replace those gaskets, send me your email address by PM and I'll send a few photos as I successfully did a replacement sump gasket with the engine in the car last Christmas.

    Good luck.

    What about the long tin thingy? Is it the trim strip along the car under the doors?
    JohnW

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  4. #4
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    Thanks as always.
    John, the tin piece from my other thread is engine tin, I posted a pic there.
    I pulled the power train to fix a t/a leak and engine leak. Turned out to be the pilot shaft seal on the trans, needed a clutch too!
    The engine got a new timing cover seal and gasket, I already did the sump with the engine in. I ran the thing off the car, supported so I had could really see and access the front drip. I guess it might be the sump corners, but I felt that it was leaking from behind the mount plate.

    Believe me, I had NO desire to dive into a good running low miles engine, but I couldn't convince myself it was from the sump.
    Good new is the engine looks like it has the 29K miles shown on the odometer. No ridge on the bores. If I don't goof it up, I'll be good to go, if I can stop this leak!

    I figured out the deal with moving the rocker arms, head is on the bench.

    It was a bear to get the dizzy drive out. My plan is now to hold the cam followers up with magnets and remove the cam.

    Cheers, ALan

  5. #5
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    I need more help.
    I am ready to remove the cam, or at least thought I was.
    My thought is to follow the cam out with a wooden dowel to hold the cam followers. I have released the flange at the drive end, and of course the drive pulley at the rear. Dizzy drive gear is out.
    The cam pulls forward maybe a /14 inch and stops, hard. WHAT am I missing.

    Thanks, Alan

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    NEVERMIND!

    Okay, I consulted a more experienced buddy and he suggested I make sure all the followers were pulled all the way up, and that I might need to rotate the cam. So it all worked out as it should and my 1 3/8 dowel is in place.

    Good news is the gasket behind the plate did have a couple of suspicious areas

    Best, Alan

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    NEVERMIND!

    Okay, I consulted a more experienced buddy and he suggested I make sure all the followers were pulled all the way up, and that I might need to rotate the cam. So it all worked out as it should and my 1 3/8 dowel is in place.

    Good news is the gasket behind the plate did have a couple of suspicious areas

    Best, Alan

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    NEVERMIND!

    Okay, I consulted a more experienced buddy and he suggested I make sure all the followers were pulled all the way up, and that I might need to rotate the cam. So it all worked out as it should and my 1 3/8 dowel is in place.

    Good news is the gasket behind the plate did have a couple of suspicious areas

    Best, Alan
    Sounds good - when I read your "cam moves 1/4" then stops" post, I wondered whether the followers were high enough.

    If you send my your email address by PM, I'll send my illustrated article on in car engine work and sump gasket replacement.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Sounds good - when I read your "cam moves 1/4" then stops" post, I wondered whether the followers were high enough.

    If you send my your email address by PM, I'll send my illustrated article on in car engine work and sump gasket replacement.

    Cheers
    PM sent, thanks Alan

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Thanks as always. I figured out the deal with moving the rocker arms, head is on the bench.

    It was a bear to get the dizzy drive out. My plan is now to hold the cam followers up with magnets and remove the cam.

    Cheers, ALan
    I seem to recall there are two types of dizzy drive. Both work as splined shafts though a drive gear that rotates the oil pump and the distributor. Mine is the early type, or was before I used a later oil pump, and there was a separate short shaft that pulls out allowing you to get a bolt into the internal thread on the cam drive gear. Easy, relative to the other, if I'm remembering it properly. I suppose yours is the single piece with a long shaft from the oil pump and you had to try and rotate the thing and wind it up and out? Nasty.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  11. #11
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    I'm putting things back together, waiting for a head gasket to arrive.

    My car came with a cast iron exhaust. I see the heat riser flap has been stuck in the heat to carb position. Rather than goof with it, I think I'll use the "Autobleu" (?) tubular set up that is on a spare engine I purchased from a local scrounger. It has a power take off directly on the crank. It must have been used by an industrious farmer for a wood splitter, water pump, generator or such.

    Any reason not to switch? Can I buy an exhaust pipe that connects the header flange to a stock muffler (I have a new one), or just have the muffler shop bend something up?

    Will the engine tin I have work, or is there a different one?

    Also, my timing cover doesn't have any coil mounting studs, looks like it never did. The coil is mounted on one of the bolts of the lower crankcase breather. I would like this to be as original as possible, every pic I can find shows it on the timing cover.

    Cheers, Alan

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    I'm putting things back together, waiting for a head gasket to arrive.

    My car came with a cast iron exhaust. I see the heat riser flap has been stuck in the heat to carb position. Rather than goof with it, I think I'll use the "Autobleu" (?) tubular set up that is on a spare engine I purchased from a local scrounger. It has a power take off directly on the crank. It must have been used by an industrious farmer for a wood splitter, water pump, generator or such.

    Any reason not to switch? Can I buy an exhaust pipe that connects the header flange to a stock muffler (I have a new one), or just have the muffler shop bend something up?

    Will the engine tin I have work, or is there a different one?

    Also, my timing cover doesn't have any coil mounting studs, looks like it never did. The coil is mounted on one of the bolts of the lower crankcase breather. I would like this to be as original as possible, every pic I can find shows it on the timing cover.

    Cheers, Alan
    Hi Alan,

    I had thought that most of the 4CVs that got to USA had the Autobleu manifolding, to get a bit more power. Providing you don't live in a very cold part of California, I honestly doubt the heater valve matters much - mine was jammed for 45 years before I got a replacement with a moving flap from Web Pieces Retro in France. He can sell you a fully rebuilt one in working order if you really wanted to, and probably could sell you a timing cover with studs for the coil. Personally, I'd use the Autobleu and retrofit two bolts to the timing cover (keep it close to flush on the inside!) - again you might find a timing cover in USA and if not, again Web Pieces Retro might have one in stock.

    I don't know where coils sat on Dauphines or late 4CVs in USA. My R8 has the coil where you describe, but every 4CV I've seen in original condition has the coil on that timing cover.

    Personally again, I'd get the muffler shop to fix a flange to the new "correct" exhaust pipe that you apparently have and mate that to the Autobleu manifolding. It is a three bolt triangular flange or something like that?

    I've no idea but think the "engine tin" will work, if you mean the one you posted a photo of. Do you have the inner half too?

    Great to hear this work going on!

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
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    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Also, my timing cover doesn't have any coil mounting studs, looks like it never did.
    Sounds like the set-up used on the Dauphine. What engine type is in the car (detailed on the riveted aluminium plate), just wondering if it has had a motor change at some time?
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  14. #14
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Sounds like the set-up used on the Dauphine. What engine type is in the car (detailed on the riveted aluminium plate), just wondering if it has had a motor change at some time?
    Good thought Simon. Should have asked about engine type.

    Regards
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  15. #15
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    Unfortunately the tag is torn, about half of it is gone.
    Just guessing here, but it would make sense that it is a Dauphine engine.
    It's my understanding that 44 or 50 consecutive cars were pulled from the assembly line to be sent Ghia to be Resort Specials. The Dauphine was already in production, and these 44 or 50 cars were from or near "the end of the line".

    Further to the timing cover, John has been advising me thru email.
    When I test ran the engine there was a thin line of oil spray on my muffler, obviously being thrown off the crank pulley.
    My timing cover had 2 seals and no oil slinger. I had surmised that the slinger had been left out by a previous "mechanic".
    I had installed my new seal flush with the outer lip of the cover, there is a feint witness mark, not quite a groove on the crank at that position. So I have now moved it in towards the engine about 3/16".

    Merci

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Unfortunately the tag is torn, about half of it is gone.
    Just guessing here, but it would make sense that it is a Dauphine engine.
    It's my understanding that 44 or 50 consecutive cars were pulled from the assembly line to be sent Ghia to be Resort Specials. The Dauphine was already in production, and these 44 or 50 cars were from or near "the end of the line".

    Further to the timing cover, John has been advising me thru email.
    When I test ran the engine there was a thin line of oil spray on my muffler, obviously being thrown off the crank pulley.
    My timing cover had 2 seals and no oil slinger. I had surmised that the slinger had been left out by a previous "mechanic".
    I had installed my new seal flush with the outer lip of the cover, there is a feint witness mark, not quite a groove on the crank at that position. So I have now moved it in towards the engine about 3/16".

    Merci
    Forgot to reply re seals and slingers. The early cars didn't have a seal but a reverse thread on the short pulley shaft that exits through the timing cover and a fairly small clearance between the two. That is what I meant when I referred to a "slinger".

    The later cars have a smooth shaft on the crankshaft pulley and a seal in the timing cover housing. In Oz, we use commercially available thin stainless steel sleeves to provide a clean sealing surface if there is a worn groove - they are called "Speedi Sleeves" and I imagine they are available in USA. Maybe they come from USA! They work really well and are easy to fit, but you need to make sure there is a bit of sealant on the shaft underneath that sleeve.

    There might also be a curved disc on the end of the crankshaft to throw oil away from the seal.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Forgot to reply re seals and slingers. The early cars didn't have a seal but a reverse thread on the short pulley shaft that exits through the timing cover and a fairly small clearance between the two. That is what I meant when I referred to a "slinger".

    The later cars have a smooth shaft on the crankshaft pulley and a seal in the timing cover housing. In Oz, we use commercially available thin stainless steel sleeves to provide a clean sealing surface if there is a worn groove - they are called "Speedi Sleeves" and I imagine they are available in USA. Maybe they come from USA! They work really well and are easy to fit, but you need to make sure there is a bit of sealant on the shaft underneath that sleeve.

    There might also be a curved disc on the end of the crankshaft to throw oil away from the seal.
    John,
    That's good info for me, really clarifies that different set ups.
    Hopefully, just moving the seal to a fresh position will work for me. If not I'll try a sleeve.

    Waiting for my radiator to get back from the shop, and my manifold from the "jet hot" folks.

    Can't close without thanking you, once again, for your help.

    Best, Alan

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    John,
    That's good info for me, really clarifies that different set ups.
    Hopefully, just moving the seal to a fresh position will work for me. If not I'll try a sleeve.

    Waiting for my radiator to get back from the shop, and my manifold from the "jet hot" folks.

    Can't close without thanking you, once again, for your help.

    Best, Alan
    My great pleasure Alan.

    The tricky bit is after you have done everything and it still isn't completely oil-tight. It is difficult to sort 100% - these were designed in the early 1940s after all, so the gasket arrangements are not perfect! It can be hard to get the fuel pump to seal perfectly too. Then there's the dipstick!! I've done my best and there is a hint of the odd drip, and I can live with that. So, I'd say mine is 95% oil tight.

    The later Sierra engines are 100% oil tight if done by the book. Mine is.

    Cheers.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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