5speed (395) in manual R12 (352)
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Default 5speed (395) in manual R12 (352)

    Never attempted the conversion, but I know the floorpan needs the hump extended a bit. Now my question is how much is "a bit"? The length difference between the two 'boxes is not that much, but how does that translate into practice? Can I just bash it with a hammer, or does it need some welding/surgery?

    The second part of the question is if I transplant an 807 engine instead of the 810 does that make a difference in regard to how far back the 'box will reach/ (My guts say no, because the exit point of the driveshaft from the g'box is in the same position but I am not sure).

    And lastly, does this modification raise any problems with the exhaust? I know I am not going to be able to use the existing R12 bracket at the back of the box, but is there any other clearance/positioning problem (I am particularly interested in the section where the exhaust goes past the g'box).

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    I have all the parts I need including the exhaust from manifold to the tailpipe, but it's for a 17TL, so a 4 speed (352) setup.

    Oh, and another question, did anyone here ever use the 32/36 DGV on an 807? What jetting does it need? Dizzy will be the 807 original item.
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    It is not a job for a hammer. What I did was cut a hole about 200 mm (perhaps a bit more) in the firewall/floor and then fit the engine and gearbox until I could get it to fit with suitable clearance. I then made up a hump using a few bits of sheet metal ( hammer now ) bent with a ball pane hammer and then welded in place. The hump from an automatic is perfect if you can find one. The gear linkage and gear box mounts are also different and involve some welding of brackets to the chassis. The engine fits fine provided it is not a real early R12. The cross member behind the engine that the battery tray sits on needs to be bowed back towards the fire wall, some early R12's went straight across. Not that I have ever seen one that does. I think an electric fan is a good idea. Also an R15/17 radiator as they are bigger than a normal R12 one. From memory you will need different engine mount brackets but the rubber mounts fit just fine. Also I am not sure about the clutch cable perhaps it is different. It is 32 years since I did mine and while I still have it the motor is out at the moment, although I could check further measurements for you if you wish. I took the car in to an exhaust shop and got them to build an exhaust. If you do that get a bit of flexible exhaust pipe put in just after the engine pipe. I got them to fit a flange at the end of the engine pipe so that I can easily unbolt the exhaust if I need to take the engine out. I think there is a loss of power if you go bigger than a 2" exhaust. Can't help with the carby as we fitted two side draft Webers. Do not forget to uprate the brakes to at least R15TS/17TL.

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    I wonder what happened to the green one in Perth? It was a 5-speed box, 16TS or equivalent motor, and shortened/rewelded driveshafts. When I saw it the rust was taking over or I'd have made an offer.
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    I have all the gear I need from an R17 including engine and g'box mounts (all new actually from overseas), exhaust manifold (and intake), an entire original Renault NOS exhaust for R17TL and gear shift bits (rods/mechanism) and bobs, and 5 speed mount brackets (copied after a 365 setup off my 17G) so I am pretty sure I have everything even if I have to raid the 17G spares box.

    I also have a 17 clutch cable (it's actually shorter than the R12 but beefier) together with clutch and plate, bearing, 17TL vented brakes are already on the car, I have short driveshafts (original Glenzer-Spicer from Europe), and I have all the rest of it just the experience of doing it lacks.

    Good point about the crossmember and the chassis attaching points for the g'box mounts, I'll check if they exist on the R12 chassis.
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    Good that you kept the 17 gear stick and bits. We had a lot of trouble trying to make the R12 stick work and had to modify it a whole heap and never got it truly right. The knuckles still hit the dash in a heated fast change. As you probably know the R17 gear linkage has to be set up just right even a mm out can cause gear selection problems. I am not sure but perhaps the R17 gear lever was a bit short for the original R12 seats. Maybe the R17 seats are lower. We have SAAS seats so not sure about that now. Why short drive shafts? I am sure my R17 and the R12 have normal R12 shafts as I cannot get the thicker R17TS/G ones. I also thought that I once, many years ago, compared the two for length and they were the same.

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    COL
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    I am part way through a conversion of a 395/NG1 into an R12 (long term project). The 395 boxes have the gearbox mounts off the side of the half cases.

    I have modified R18 mounts (bent to 90 deg) and they fit under the steering rack bolted to the upright that joins the upper and lower chassis rails. You will also have to weld in a little piece of metal 4mm thick for the mounts to fit on as they were in the R18.

    The size of the hump needs to be somewhere between the manual and auto hump sizes. I'm still deciding whether to extend the manual hump or shrink the auto hump or just fabricate my own.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Hi Col, how long is the difference (at a guess) between the auto and manual hump?

    I am not going to use any 395 hardware. I copied the 365 setup which is I think a Renault factory bodgery but has a better chance to just slot into an R12.

    Sunroof,
    The 395 'boxes need the shorter driveshafts because their outdrives are 1cm longer. 395 has the newer outdrive seals that run on the outdrive shaft rather than the driveshaft end. You probably swapped in your car a 365, those 'boxes have the same oil seal as the 352 (driveshaft end).

    And yes, the R17 seats are quite low compared to the R12 seats. The R12 dash however is higher and protruding less inside than the 17 though.

    Yeah, given that I have the 17G I decided to strip the TL shell clean off and kept everything.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 18th November 2014 at 01:25 PM.
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Hi Col, how long is the difference (at a guess) between the auto and manual hump?

    I am not going to use any 395 hardware. I copied the 365 setup which is I think a Renault factory bodgery but has a better chance to just slot into an R12.

    Sunroof,
    The 395 'boxes need the shorter driveshafts because their outdrives are 1cm longer. 395 has the newer outdrive seals that run on the outdrive shaft rather than the driveshaft end. You probably swapped in your car a 365, those 'boxes have the same oil seal as the 352 (driveshaft end).

    And yes, the R17 seats are quite low compared to the R12 seats. The R12 dash however is higher and protruding less inside than the 17 though.

    Yeah, given that I have the 17G I decided to strip the TL shell clean off and kept everything.
    The auto hump is about 65mm longer than the manual hump. The auto hump is also 80mm wider at the base and a lot higher.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Thank you. So in effect I only need to extend the hump 65mm. Doesn't sound so dramatic. I'm thinking cut two parallel lines along the back end of the existing hump lengthwise on the sides and 65mm beyond the end and reshape the strip inbetween (without cutting it off the car) and cover the lateral spaces somehow (welding, I suppose).

    Eyeballing the 352 and 395 I would say it might need a touch more than 65mm but not that much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Thank you. So in effect I only need to extend the hump 65mm. Doesn't sound so dramatic. I'm thinking cut two parallel lines along the back end of the existing hump lengthwise on the sides and 65mm beyond the end and reshape the strip inbetween (without cutting it off the car) and cover the lateral spaces somehow (welding, I suppose).

    Eyeballing the 352 and 395 I would say it might need a touch more than 65mm but not that much.
    You may need to make the hump a little wider on the left side where the pivot for the gear change rods bolts to the gearbox. You will find it is at floor level when the box is installed.

    This pivot is bolted to the gearbox on the 395 boxes and to the body on the 365 boxes.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeah, you're right, forgot about that. That's a good point. My G has it bolted to the chassis hence I forgot about it. Eh, we'll see. I may have a root around over the w/e to see how much work this might turn out to be.
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Yeah, you're right, forgot about that. That's a good point. My G has it bolted to the chassis hence I forgot about it. Eh, we'll see. I may have a root around over the w/e to see how much work this might turn out to be.
    I think its pretty straight forward, just need to think about those small details.

    Are you going to use the R18 gearbox mounts or are you fabricating your own?
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I don't have the 395 mounts, I have fabricated a couple of 365 brackets and I have new 365 mounts.
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    I don't have the 395 mounts, I have fabricated a couple of 365 brackets and I have new 365 mounts.
    You should be able to use the standard R12 mounting points on the chassis rails then.
    Regards Col

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yeap. That was my plan.

    Sticking the 365 in the 12G/17G looks like an afterthought of the factory rather than a well laid out plan. The original 365 brackets in my 17G look like manufactured in the wee hours of the night shift. Good enough to do the job but easily improved even by a backyard mechanic. Perhaps it was too late to have specially designed hardware hence they used the R12 setup for the 352 and bodged something on the spot. I noticed this and that's why I went with the 365 mounts. The 395 mounts look properly designed for the job and from memory are much beefier, maybe even over engineered a bit. Either way, I chucked them a long time ago.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 19th November 2014 at 03:45 AM.
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    I'm actually doing exactly the same conversion at the moment, but I'm starting with a bare box and no mounts or linkages at all, so some useful information for me here.
    I have an NG1 that I will use to replace the current 4 speed which I think was out of a 15ts, so I am trying to find some 18 mounting brackets and linkages that I can use. Unless I find someone with a spare close ratio 365 and trimmings.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    The NG is a different beast.

    Different clutch lever, different clutch cover, different input spigot shaft, different back cover and shifter mechanism, different 5th speed casing. You've really got the odds stacked against you on this one.

    Not saying it's impossible.
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    Hmmm, maybe I have my number mixed up. Was the NG! used in the Fuego as well as the R18? I bought the 5 speed box on the premise that it was an early R18 box as it runs the same selector linkage set up as my 17G.
    My memory for the different box numbers has always been shoddy.
    And the ID tag on teh box is faded to the point that I can't see the box type number

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    So is my knowledge of NG boxes.
    In OZ, Fuegos are the main donor of NG boxes but that is the NG3 box (GTX 2L models, not sure about the other model, can't even remember what it's called). Overseas it's a different and more complicated story. I am not sure what cars here had the NG1 (I have heard R25 but never seen one). Come to think of it I realise all my info above is based on the NG3 'box, your NG1 may be different. From fading memory, I remember the NG1 had a flippable diff (the final drive mesh with the crownwheel is at crownwheel midpoint which allows the diff to be flipped to drive the other way around - i.e. you can use the 'box for or aft the engine). This is not possible with 352/365/395 because the mesh is below the mid point. The other implication might be that NG1 gears (final drive/crownwheel) are not hypoid, otherwise it's not possible. Might sound academic, but I would expect a non hypoid to be a bit noisier.

    Let's see. Does your 'box have a steel plate sandwiched between the main case and the 5th speed cover? If not, it is probably an NG, but I am not sure. NG3 definitely does not have that plate, but not sure about NG1. If NG1 didn't have a plate either, to decide between these two I would have to open the 'box and check the final drive mesh as above.

    Hopefully more knowledgeable people will come in.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 20th November 2014 at 05:03 PM.
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    it seems like I'll need to go and have a good look and take some photos. I've possibly called it an NG1 when it in fact might be an NG3.
    I'm pretty certain that it is an R18 donor and definitely a local car.
    More info to come.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Pretty easy to spot the sandwiched plate of a 365/395. Look at the lump at the back of these boxes:

    http://images6.okr.ro/serve/auctions...72-700_700.jpg

    And this is an NG3:

    http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/6556/...6080_small.jpg

    Compare the ends of these boxes to spot the differences.
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    It's the UN1 that has the crown wheel you can flip. As far as I'm aware none of the NG transaxles can be flipped.

    Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006882 View Post
    I'm actually doing exactly the same conversion at the moment, but I'm starting with a bare box and no mounts or linkages at all, so some useful information for me here.
    I have an NG1 that I will use to replace the current 4 speed which I think was out of a 15ts, so I am trying to find some 18 mounting brackets and linkages that I can use. Unless I find someone with a spare close ratio 365 and trimmings.
    If you want to use the NG* series of boxes out of the Fuego you will need to change the bell housing.

    I'm thinking of using the NG* out of my old Fuego. I also have a couple of 395 boxes here as well.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006882 View Post
    I'm pretty certain that it is an R18 donor and definitely a local car.
    The very late (as in last) Australian sold 18GTS (with the 1647cc motor) were fitted with the NG1 gearbox, so it may well be one of those.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    There you go.

    Simon, were all R18 in Oz non crossflow?

    The gear selecting mechanism on NG3 is very different to the 365/395 boxes as well, and a pain in the behind to bodge. The NG3 relies on two rods one of which is anchored at the base of the gear stick under the car (on a small square baseplate). Something like that.

    Yes, I was confused about the UN1 'box as well. What cars had this 'box?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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