Braking efficiency- R8/R10/Caravelle- 4 Wheel Disc
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Thread: Braking efficiency- R8/R10/Caravelle- 4 Wheel Disc

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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Default Braking efficiency- R8/R10/Caravelle- 4 Wheel Disc

    Hi Fellow Renault R8/R10/Caravelle - 4 Wheel Disc Brake owners.

    Is there any of you out there that can honestly say if you stand on your brakes you can skid any of your 4 wheels?? (Not you Gordini owners, I know you can) just us unassisted 4 wheel Disc brake owners.

    I have just completely overhauled the entire braking system on the Caravelle and I'm still not happy with the result, including removing the pressure limiter mechanism at the back. Just seems an awful lot of foot power for a miserable response! maybe they need a good bedding in, other than that, I GIVE UP !!!

    Love to hear from you and what you think.

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    Cheers Phil

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    If your pads are green, they won't supply the kind of braking you expect.

    http://rdabrakes.com.au/page/TB05.aspx
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    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Phil,
    All of my rear engined Renaults were fitted with disc brakes, even my Dauphine, and all of them stood on there noses when you wanted to stop hard. I do think the problem now is that the brake companies make the pads out of modern materials, that are not suited to the old system, and hence the deficiency of the system. But in saying that I have driven current cars that have had brake overhauls, and I still get them to stand on their nose, but I have imported pads. I buy European low performance from Ferodo. You have to look for them.

    Ray
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    The only tyre screeching noises I get is when I hit the gas pedal by mistake...

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    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    The only tyre screeching noises I get is when I hit the gas pedal by mistake...
    From the fan belt I presume??
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    Fellow Frogger! R10S FAN's Avatar
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    When I had my R8A it would lock up the rears when I stood on the brakes for some reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R8philSA View Post
    Hi Fellow Renault R8/R10/Caravelle - 4 Wheel Disc Brake owners.

    Is there any of you out there that can honestly say if you stand on your brakes you can skid any of your 4 wheels?? (Not you Gordini owners, I know you can) just us unassisted 4 wheel Disc brake owners.

    I have just completely overhauled the entire braking system on the Caravelle and I'm still not happy with the result, including removing the pressure limiter mechanism at the back. Just seems an awful lot of foot power for a miserable response! maybe they need a good bedding in, other than that, I GIVE UP !!!

    Love to hear from you and what you think.

    Cheers Phil
    Why don't you measure the distance it takes for you to stop from 60Km/h, it should be just under 20 metres.

    Don't forget these are old cars, and you are running modern rubber which has more traction than the old cars, having said that I have found that when I drive the R8/10/Alpine they do require a reasonable amount of pedal pressure.
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Pretty sure both my R10 and R8 would lock the fronts if I stood on them, my R10 certainly would.
    My R8 currently has a relatively spongey pedal after being firm for ages (I overhauled the brakes and changed to silicon fluid) whilst the R10 is still firm despite the same treatment. I did the 10 up and had the 8's done professionally before the muster in junee.

    I bought a new master cylinder from mecaparts for the 8 and had the r10 one resleeved in Adelaide. After your posts I have wondered if I may have put the wrong size into the R8. It is harder to match parts for as being an early R1132, it has a mismatch of parts - some things are 1130, others 1132.
    KB


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    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Hi Phil, my little beast would lock up the fronts during hoon braking or emergency stops. I haven't braked like that since removing the rear proportioning valve but it doesn't appear much different as far as pedal feel goes.

    I feel some more rego coming up with this improving weather. Look out Hills people
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    cheers,

    John

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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    OK, Thanks to everybody for answering. Out of all this I think I'm expecting a bit much and need to be more forgiving until the pads bed in. I might try getting the Ferodo pads and see what difference that makes.

    Cheers Phil

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Phil, what pads do you have on now? I can get you Bendix pads, used to race with them, for NZ$30.00 for a side. (plus postage) I have them on my G and it works fine.

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    phil ,i use dot 4 brake fluid in the 10s and the r8.both cars have good brakes.

    note edit to dot 4 not dot3

    cheers brian
    Last edited by potentz; 17th September 2014 at 07:23 PM.

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    Why not a booster? Brettr has upgraded to two? Check the thread and perhaps PM him? and yes I agree the brakes are crap...

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    The R10 brakes fitted to my 4CV will still lock the fronts, even with the rear pressure regulator removed. I tested this to be certain after doing the conversion. I use a 22mm master cylinder, but no idea what pads. The pads came from Caravelle in Melbourne.

    If I jump on the brakes and the throttle hard at the same time the car will just keep powering on with the front brakes locked. I found this out whilst taking off quickly at the lights, to then change into the next lane behind stopped traffic. It took three goes to hit only the brake. Size 12 feet are a tight fit in the 4CV. I have since modified the accelerator to be much narrower and closer to the right inner wheel arch to rectify this.
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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordini Pervert View Post
    Why not a booster? and yes I agree the brakes are crap...
    BS. Why have they produced these cars for so many years, unchanged. Brett has increased power 10 fold and I agree with it. Here is a stock Caravelle with a problem.

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    Fellow Frogger! potentz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordini Pervert View Post
    Why not a booster? Brettr has upgraded to two? Check the thread and perhaps PM him? and yes I agree the brakes are crap...
    i disagree.
    the brakes work quite well if operating properley. as i said ,both my cars stop very well and cannot justify fitting a booster as a sorted standard system has a nice feel on the pedal

    cheers brian

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    Fellow Frogger! R8philSA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Phil, what pads do you have on now? I can get you Bendix pads, used to race with them, for NZ$30.00 for a side. (plus postage) I have them on my G and it works fine.

    Frans.
    Hi Frans

    Thanks for the offer but I'm trying something else before I go for a brake pad change. Brian has discussed with me the small amount of end play space when setting the pads into the calipers. I reckon mine were very tight with no end play at all, so it's worth a try before I go spending out more on another set of pads. The pads that were in the Caravelle when I did the brake overhaul were all but new.
    Thanks again

    Phil

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    An interesting thread.

    My 2c worth on the vehicles is that, even with the rear compensating valve removed, hard wet braking is going to threaten locking the fronts. So, threshold braking is an important skill & it's easier to do in a nuanced way with no booster. So, don't bother with a booster unless you have a palsied right leg.

    My pads on the 4CVG & R8 are whatever bog-standard ones Ken was selling last time we got them. No doubt they'd fade in an extended fast & twisty downhill run but for normal fast "C" road work they're good & "full on", single episode, wallaby-avoiding braking is better with normal road pads which don't have to be warmed.

    My Djet comes with the early R16 "big brakes" at the front as standard but if it hadn't, the other two brake so well that I wouldn't bother to change from normal R8/R10. For competition work? Yes. But for fast road work, my choice is unboosted, unbig, standard-padded R8/R10 Normale.

    Mind you, I suppose I don't brake much really :-)

    cheers! Peter

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    My Floride S locks the fronts ok. Does need a bit of a push though. I think some times people get an old car and expect feather soft touch of modern brakes, NOT YOU PHIL as you already have an R8. Mind you the feather touch may bring some inexperienced drivers undone at times when confronted with a panic stop.

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    It's not the same car at all but the big, heavy Valiant E38 came standard with no power booster, and with your "G" assisted weight on the stop pedal had no problems at all pulling up from 140mph at the end of Conrod Straight. Road testers trying out the later E49 (which came with a booster as standard) seemed to prefer the unboosted brakes of the standard E39. Must be something in it!
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts Fordman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    It's not the same car at all but the big, heavy Valiant E38 came standard with no power booster, and with your "G" assisted weight on the stop pedal had no problems at all pulling up from 140mph at the end of Conrod Straight. Road testers trying out the later E49 (which came with a booster as standard) seemed to prefer the unboosted brakes of the standard E39. Must be something in it!
    On the other hand, I remember driving an E38 customer car as a mechanic back then, and it remains in my memory as a "S**t, I can't stop this thing" on a test drive around suburban streets. Like pressing your foot on a solid brick. But I never drove one at Bathurst to know what that felt like.

    I have also more recently put new pads & discs into my previous EF Falcon, with highly boosted brakes, and had that same feeling for the first few stops - they were Bendix Metal King pads, and yes, they needed bedding in time. On the big cars, boost is good.

    However, there have been plenty of smaller cars with unboosted discs, which felt quite OK, eg, early Cortinas, Escorts, etc (in my area of experience), good pedal, not too much effort required.

    I think it has a lot to do with the pad material, as stated above, and bedding in time. Standard (softer) pads will give better braking with less pedal effort, and are more than adequate for normal driving.
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    If you dont want to put in a booster then get your master cylinder re-sleeved to a smaller bore.

    Yes you will have longer travel but much lower pedal effort.

    And i dont think its fair to say thats not the correct way to do it because alot of people put 16 / 12 calipers etc etc on and leave the standard master. This is exactly the same thing in theory and is why they say the brakes feel alot more powerful after the upgrade - with half the reason being the new bigger piston volume lowering pedal effort.

    Its a low cost option and a brake house can supply all the stuff and re-sleeve etc.

    Or just keep this in the passengers seat next to you -
    Braking efficiency- R8/R10/Caravelle- 4 Wheel Disc-images.jpg

    Enjoy.
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    If you are going to use the anchor option, to be effective you would probably need to shorten the rope by about 100 metres or so.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    BS. Why have they produced these cars for so many years, unchanged. Brett has increased power 10 fold and I agree with it. Here is a stock Caravelle with a problem.

    Frans
    I'm with Frans.

    When the R10 was road tested in I suppose 1966, by the RAA in South Australia, it had the shortest stopping distance of any car they had ever tested. They are good brakes, especially for their time.

    Alan's car has the large diameter master cylinder, 22 mm, yet stops well with the worst ratio of MC to brake calipers. Some of these cars had 19 mm MC, with potentially greater pedal travel but better ratio, i.e. more braking power per unit of thrust on the pedal. I've found the brakes more sensitive and progressive without the rear pressure limiting valve than with it.

    Having said all that, these cars are nearly 50 years old and modern, power-assisted systems will pull up with lower pedal pressure and they have wider tyres with sometimes better tread pattern. For general use, and with due care in driving (remember their relatively narrow tyres), I'd say they are fine.
    JohnW

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    Tadpole
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    I have seen problems when the seals have been interchanged and round section used in place of square section. (usually leaks)
    The other thing I had once was the anti-knock off spring binding in the piston. (If you've pulled the pistons out you'll know what I mean). That one gave a firm pedal but essentially the piston didn't move. When it did it stuck on and got really hot.
    Couple of ways to fix that.
    I never needed a booster on an 8. Even from 170-180ks at Lakeside. No Fade (I ran cooling ducts and Motul RB600 with old Valeo Pads) and it would out-brake most other cars.

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