Renault Dauphine: banging noise when braking. King pins?
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  1. #1
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    Default Renault Dauphine: banging noise when braking. King pins?

    Hi everyone!

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    I am experiencing a "banging noise" when braking in my 1961 Renault Dauphine. The harder I brake, the more noise, and it seems like one "bang" or "clunk" with every turn of the wheel. The car originally had drums, but a previous owner replaced the front drums with disc brakes from a Renault Floride. I recently installed new discs and pads (R8 discs/pads), and the brakes seems to work OK, except from this noise that worries me.

    My king pins/bushings are a little worn, and I suspect this to be the reason -- but I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with similar problems? Could worn king pins cause this kind of sound when braking?

    Would appreciate any theories/input on what could be the reason here!


    Greetings from Norway
    Lars Jakob

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    Greetings Lars and welcome to Aussiefrogs.

    Perhaps your caliper(s) are just hitting the wheel rim as it rotates. It would be easy to see if it's touching by jacking the car up and rotating the wheel by hand and have a look with the aid of a flashlight or similar.

    This noise may stop once the brakes are properly bedded in and if the noise continues you might need to grind a small amount of alloy from the back of the caliper.

    My feeling is that it will settle after a bit of hard braking.

  3. #3
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    Hi and thanks - great forum.
    I don't notice anything when spinning the wheels with the car jacked up.
    I also have been driving for a while with this problem -- with no improvement.
    It's worse going downhill and braking, and from high speeds, but also audible when braking in slow speed...

    My main question now is: could king pin wear cause this kind of sound, or should I look for something else?
    Stony Renault in Denmark was a little sceptic to discs on a car made for drums (different castor/camber angle?).
    But then, I think that my front end is from either a R8 or from a Dauphine Gordini (was replaced in the 70's) -- and they both had discs.

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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    I can't really comment on king pins though others will know.

    If you have standard Dauphine rims there probably isn't enough room for the calipers. But I may be wrong...(has happened before..)

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    COL
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    If something was rubbing enough to make the sounds you describe, surely there would be visible marks on the rims or calipers
    Regards Col

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    Perhaps the anti rattle rubber buffer blocks are missing from the caliper carrier? But not sure that would be directly related to the turn of the wheel. Is it both wheels and definitely only on the front? Did it only start after the new discs and pads were fitted?

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Certainly the King pin type front end works fine with the disc set up from one of the rear engined Renaults of the era. I have the discs from an R10 on my otherwise standard kingpin 4CV set up, as do many others. My left kingpin I have found is bent from a bad accident before my ownership, and will be replaced with new bushes soon. Still the brakes work OK.

    What wheels do you have fitted?
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    I have the anti rattle rubber tubes correctly installed.
    Yes, I'm quite sure it is only in the front. It is a little hard to tell if it comes from both wheels. The king pins are worn on both sides though. The old discs were warped so the car pulsated when braking. When I replaced the dics, the pulsating stopped, but then this sound started to appear.

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    Hi Lars, this might sound silly but is it possible you might have a slightly loose wheel?
    Cheers.
    Once I thought I was wrong but, I was mistaken

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    No, the wheels have been off so many times lately that I've gotten a good routine putting them on firmly :-)

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    Hi Lars, welcome.

    Try the following:

    1) Have someone sit in the car and apply the brakes. Gently try to rock the car backwards and forwards, see if you can replicate and isolate the knock.

    2) Raise the wheels, have an assistant apply the brakes and attempt to rotate the wheels back and forward.

    3) Check that the caliper bracket is not loose.

    4) Check for evidence of contact (shiny or 'new' metal) between the inside of the rim and the back of the caliper and also the steering arm.

    5) With the wheels raised, check wheel bearings for wear.

    All thenbest

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    Certainly the King pin type front end works fine with the disc set up from one of the rear engined Renaults of the era. I have the discs from an R10 on my otherwise standard kingpin 4CV set up, as do many others. My left kingpin I have found is bent from a bad accident before my ownership, and will be replaced with new bushes soon. Still the brakes work OK.

    What wheels do you have fitted?
    OK, thanks for the compatibility input!
    I have the standard wheels fitted. They are not balanced, because the shop that fitted new tires didn't have a balancing machine that matched these old wheels.... but it doesn't seem to be a problem when driving, so I've gathered that this is not the issue..

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    Thanks for the input, Exfrogger!
    Will check these things.

    By the way, I made a video of the sound (going downhill with the engine off) - maybe it would be easier to have an opinion when actually hearing the problem:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtwFW3Two8U

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    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob View Post
    The car originally had drums, but a previous owner replaced the front drums with disc brakes from a Renault Floride.
    Welcome aboard Aussiefrogs Lars. I'm just looking to confirm a couple of things, does the car still have a king pin front end, or is it actually a ball joint front end, with two ball joints, one on the upper wishbone, and one on the lower wishbone. There are a couple of references to an R8 front end, and only the R1131 Floride S and R1131 and R1133 Caravelle that had ball joint front ends.

    Is the clearance at the ends of the pads not excessive, greater than 0.6mm, causing impact noise in the bracket. Are the disc to hub retaining bolts all secure? Any twists in the brake hoses causing incorrect caliper alignment? Is the caliper bracket correctly located, with even spacing either side of the disc? Are the pivots of the caliper retaining swing brackets secure and not ovalled and loose causing caliper movement?

    Is the noise there all the time, or just when the brakes are applied and does the noise intensity change under light and heavy braking?
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    Thank you Simon!


    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post

    1) does the car still have a king pin front end, or is it actually a ball joint front end, with two ball joints, one on the upper wishbone, and one on the lower wishbone.

    2) Is the clearance at the ends of the pads not excessive, greater than 0.6mm, causing impact noise in the bracket.
    3) Are the disc to hub retaining bolts all secure?
    4) Any twists in the brake hoses causing incorrect caliper alignment?
    5) Is the caliper bracket correctly located, with even spacing either side of the disc?
    6) Are the pivots of the caliper retaining swing brackets secure and not ovalled and loose causing caliper movement?
    7)Is the noise there all the time, or just when the brakes are applied and does the noise intensity change under light and heavy braking?

    1) Yes I think this is a normal king pin frond end:
    Renault Dauphine: banging noise when braking. King pins?-bilde-3.jpg
    ... am I right?

    2) how do you measure this? The pads looks like they fit nice. however, the inner pad, the one at the cylinder side, moves a little bit when the wheel is turned backwards and forwards. But I gathered this is normal because of the "oval hole" in the back of the pad?

    3) I think so. I don't have torque measurement tools, so I just dragged them as hard as I could. I actually even broke one of them, and had to replace the original bolt with a longer one, but I don't think this is of importance?

    4) No, not that I can see.

    5) The spacing on each side of the disc is not identical, but it isn't touching the disc. But then, the bracket is fastened to the dust shield, so how could you correct this?

    6) I think they are fine, the swing arms seem tight. Is the caliper supposed to sit really tight? It has a tiny little bit of movement when I rock it with my hand.

    7) The noise is present only when brakes are applied. And yes, it gets louder the harder I brake, especially when going downhill. It is present in both high and low speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob View Post
    1) Yes I think this is a normal king pin frond end:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	bilde-3.jpg 
Views:	529 
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ID:	59740
    ... am I right?
    Yes, it is confirmed as a king pin front end.

    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob
    2) how do you measure this? The pads looks like they fit nice. however, the inner pad, the one at the cylinder side, moves a little bit when the wheel is turned backwards and forwards. But I gathered this is normal because of the "oval hole" in the back of the pad?
    The short end of the pad should have a maximum clearance of 0.6mm between the pad and where it sits in the bracket. Sometimes it may be a touch more, but if it is a large gap, the pad can rattle.

    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob
    3) I think so. I don't have torque measurement tools, so I just dragged them as hard as I could. I actually even broke one of them, and had to replace the original bolt with a longer one, but I don't think this is of importance?
    It is unlikely, I was just thinking if there was an odd bolt in there, the head of the bolt (if it is a touch taller) may be touching something unseen behind the disc.

    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob
    5) The spacing on each side of the disc is not identical, but it isn't touching the disc. But then, the bracket is fastened to the dust shield, so how could you correct this?
    If there is some excess play in the wheel bearings, and the bracket clearance is not quite right, the disc may just touch, especially in cornering. The spacing is controlled by inserting shims between where the dust shield attaches to the stub axle. At the same time, make sure that the four bolts attaching the dust shield/back plate are tight, as loose bolts could also cause some rattles.

    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob
    6) I think they are fine, the swing arms seem tight. Is the caliper supposed to sit really tight? It has a tiny little bit of movement when I rock it with my hand.
    There will be some play, usually controlled by the rubbers, what you are looking for are excessively worn pivots, or distorted swing arms where they bear against the pad/caliper.


    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob
    7) The noise is present only when brakes are applied. And yes, it gets louder the harder I brake, especially when going downhill. It is present in both high and low speeds.
    It could still be caused by many things. If the king pins are known to be excessively worn, it may be a good starting point to overhaul the front end. It may then also show up other worn components such as worn rubber wishbone bushes, tie rod ends, steering rack eye bushes, or even a rattly steering rack in its housing.
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    Hi Lars
    I recently had new front discs and pads fitted on an R10.The person who fitted them said they would clunk for the first few weeks due to the way the discs were machined. On one wheel, i think the left hand side, the pad picks up on the disc due to the machining pattern . They have quitened down now. rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    It is unlikely, I was just thinking if there was an odd bolt in there, the head of the bolt (if it is a touch taller) may be touching something unseen behind the disc.
    Thanks, I will dismantle the passenger's side and look for faults! Did the driver's side again yesterday but with no improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    Hi Lars
    I recently had new front discs and pads fitted on an R10.The person who fitted them said they would clunk for the first few weeks due to the way the discs were machined. On one wheel, i think the left hand side, the pad picks up on the disc due to the machining pattern . They have quitened down now. rob
    Interesting! Mine sounds like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtwFW3Two8U ---- is this similar to your sound?

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    Hi Lars
    Yes similar noise. It sounds bad. I drove a bit with the brakes on slightly and one foot on the accelerator to wear off the machining marks.
    rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    Hi Lars
    Yes similar noise. It sounds bad. I drove a bit with the brakes on slightly and one foot on the accelerator to wear off the machining marks.
    rob
    I actually have driven maybe about 200-300 km since I installed the new discs and "new" (read: asbest) pads.
    Would think that the machining marks would be worn off by now?

    I am going to adjust the bracket clearance like Simon suggested.
    Would I need original shims for this or could I use something else?
    And should shims go on every of the 4 bolts to move the whole thing, or only at 2 of them?

    Lars Jakob

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    Quote Originally Posted by larsjakob View Post
    Would I need original shims for this or could I use something else?
    And should shims go on every of the 4 bolts to move the whole thing, or only at 2 of them?
    There are specific shims, usually starting at 0.5mm thickness, but custom made shims (of a non-crushing material) of a suitable thickness could be used. The shims will have to be fitted to the four bolts, to keep the caliper bracket and pads parallel to the disc, otherwise the pads will wear to a wedge shape.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    There are specific shims, usually starting at 0.5mm thickness, but custom made shims (of a non-crushing material) of a suitable thickness could be used. The shims will have to be fitted to the four bolts, to keep the caliper bracket and pads parallel to the disc, otherwise the pads will wear to a wedge shape.
    ...and probably make the caliper bang on the wheel rims.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    ...and probably make the caliper bang on the wheel rims.
    Why ?
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