Renault 17 Wiper Speeds
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Thread: Renault 17 Wiper Speeds

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    Fellow Frogger! deja vu 25's Avatar
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    Default Renault 17 Wiper Speeds

    Hi All
    Just had the roadworthy done on my R17 and they have knocked it back saying that the wipers are too slow.
    I am a bit baffled as they seem to be operating as normal. Granted they do not have the power and speed of a new car, but they do seem fine and are certianly fine when there is lubrication on the screen - water!
    I remember them being about the sam espeed as my old R12.

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    Any ideas. Do yo uthink me explaining this to the mechanic will work? It is going on Historic plates afterall.
    Very frustrating when it has already had a NSW rego inspection that passed..

    Any ideas welcome.
    Cheers - Luke

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by deja vu 25 View Post
    Hi All
    Just had the roadworthy done on my R17 and they have knocked it back saying that the wipers are too slow.
    I am a bit baffled as they seem to be operating as normal. Granted they do not have the power and speed of a new car, but they do seem fine and are certianly fine when there is lubrication on the screen - water!
    I remember them being about the sam espeed as my old R12.

    Any ideas. Do yo uthink me explaining this to the mechanic will work? It is going on Historic plates afterall.
    Very frustrating when it has already had a NSW rego inspection that passed..

    Any ideas welcome.
    Thats a bit of the a shame.

    As long as the 2 speeds work and the rubbers and all the linkages are in good condition should be all that matters.

    Any way for the Aussiefrogs record the wipers on my R12 on a dry screen.
    Slow speed it took 2.5 secs to complete a cycle.
    High speed too 1.9 secs to complete a cycle.
    Regards Col

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    Thanks Col. I agree. They work fine on both speeds. Not sure how I can convince them of that.
    Yes that is how I remember my r12 wipers to be.

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    What specs is he applying, that doesn't pass????? Work from there. These roadworthy guys like to apply modern specs to an old car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 85Fuego View Post
    What specs is he applying, that doesn't pass????? Work from there. These roadworthy guys like to apply modern specs to an old car.
    That mechanic is going really struggle when it comes to testing a vacuum set up or the hand cranked type!
    Brendan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r25 baccara View Post
    Not sure how I can convince them of that.
    Easy. Your wipers have to comply with ADR 16, first implemented on 1 January 1973. This requires a frequency of at least 45 cycles per minute. If yours comply, print of a copy of the relevent ADR as linked below, and take the car back to the inspector.

    http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...ign/pdf/16.pdf



    The frequency of the 15/17 wiper setup is also shown in the Renault Australia product placement video below. Keep watching until around 2.50, or 3.07, or if time is important, fast forward to those times and watch for the wiper action. You should be able to time the sweeps from the video clock.


    End Play - the original Australian theatrical trailer - YouTube



    As the 15/17 wiper equipment lives in the plenum chamber, check all the linkages for wear and seizure, lubricating where necessary. Sometimes the wiper spindles can partially seize slowing them down, or there is a bad earth from rust or wire corrosion.
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    I read it as at least 20 cycles/min as well as 45 cycles/min???

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    My R17 wipers are also slow. Didn't worry my tester three years ago.


    It is a recommendation Simon. Has it been taken up by all states?
    Last edited by Sunroof; 7th August 2014 at 08:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    My R17 wipers are also slow. Didn't worry my tester three years ago.


    It is a recommendation Simon. Has it been taken up by all states?
    My R17 wipers are also slow but when I got my car back on the road again ( Aug'11 ) after having the r17 remained etc it had to go over the pits for registration. The only issue I had was I broke the indicator lever on the way to the lic centre. WA as far as I know have a varied degree of tolerance, so depends who/ where you go as to the result. There were no issues of the slow wipers with mine.

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    Hello All
    Thank you for the great advice. The video is great
    The funny thing is that I asked the mechanic, (in my least condescending tone) that did the testing if he understood how to get the wipers to function using the quirky twist switch. He said the wipers were slow and he didn't want to break the switch. I explained that they were consistent with other Renault models of this era and he said that they were too slow and wouldn't wipe away any water, then gave me an auto electricians card and said that he had good rates and that the wipers would not do anything in the wet.
    Anyway - I got in the car, started it up and tested the wipers - low and behold they were definitely fast enough and operated on both speeds very well without any water on the screen!! So then I though to myself...i bet he tested them without the engine running.... so I switched the engine off and low and behold the performance of the wipers was dramatically slower. I thought I had better not push my luck as I think I had already pissed him off a little by questioning his notation around the wiper speed in the first place. As it turns out there was also a very minute fuel leak from a small piece of hose going from the fuel tank to the pump. So I will fix that and then take the car back and make sure he test the wipers with the engine running. I am sure that it is not against regs to have the engine running to get the wipers to work at a suitable speed.
    I also explained that the car was going on historic plates and that the standards back in the early 1970's were a little different to today - he said it didn't matter. Grrrr!
    Anyway I think I will take the scuttle off and give the motor a clean, lube up the wiper arms and make sure everything is as lubricated as possible. Then try try again!

    I have used this guy in the past and have had a lot of success. It is almost like they have a quota that they have to knock back!
    Cheers - Luke

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Thats a bit of the a shame.

    As long as the 2 speeds work and the rubbers and all the linkages are in good condition should be all that matters.

    Any way for the Aussiefrogs record the wipers on my R12 on a dry screen.
    Slow speed it took 2.5 secs to complete a cycle.
    High speed too 1.9 secs to complete a cycle.
    These times I have quoted here were without the engine running.

    It would make a difference as there is a few extra volts when the alternator is charging.
    deja vu 25 likes this.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by deja vu 25 View Post
    Anyway - I got in the car, started it up and tested the wipers - low and behold they were definitely fast enough and operated on both speeds very well without any water on the screen!! So then I though to myself...i bet he tested them without the engine running.... so I switched the engine off and low and behold the performance of the wipers was dramatically slower. !
    The extra information is always of assistance, the test sounds like it was performed incorrectly. Here is an extract of how the ADR 16 test is carried out, ripped from the full document here:

    http://rvcs.dotars.gov.au/TFI%20Manu...016-01-9-1.pdf


    ……the voltage supplied should be representative of the voltage that would exist under normal vehicle operating conditions at the point at which it is applied…….

    6.2.1.2 Tests. Operate the system at each operating speed in turn with the windscreen being continuously wetted.

    Sufficient water should be distributed over the windscreen surface to permit constant operation without causing dragging or overloading to occur.

    Excluding intermittent wipe operations (if provided) determine the frequency of operation of the system at each operating speed by either:

    - recording the time necessary for a given number of complete cycles of the system, or

    - recording the number of complete cycles completed over a given period of time.

    Note: The time recording method is to be preferred as it provides a more accurate result not being dependent on completion of complete cycles coincident with a given time period.

    6.2.1.3 Determination of Results. At the completion of the tests the frequency of wipe in cycles per minute can be calculated for each operating speed.

    7 ANALYSIS OF RESULTS
    The vehicle will be considered to have conformed with the Requirements of ADR 16/00 if the following results have been achieved after making the appropriate allowance for instrument uncertainty when applicable.

    7.2 Vehicle Categories LEP, MA, MB, MC and MD1 Only

    16.2 The vehicle was fitted with a power driven windscreen wiping system meeting operational
    and specification requirements of Clause 16.2 and detailed in Section 7.1 of this Procedure.

    16.3.1 The windscreen wiping system provided two or more frequencies or speeds.

    16.3.2 One frequency or speed provided by the wiping system was at least 45 cycles per
    minute regardless of engine load and engine speed.

    16.3.3 Regardless of engine speed and engine load, the highest and one lower frequency or speed
    differed by at least 15 cycles per minute. The lower frequency or speed was at least 20 cycles
    per minute regardless of engine load and engine speed.


    So, in a nutshell, take your own squeezy bottle of water to keep the screen wet, otherwise they will likely get you to replace the screen because it is scratched. Start the car so that the test can be performed “under normal operating conditions” then measure the frequency of the wipers. If it is close to the 45 cycles at high speed, and better than 20 at low speed (which it should be!), there should be no issue.

    Note that the ADR 16 rules haven’t changed since 1973. Also the End Play clip is probably the best evidence that 15/17 wipers are generally not slow. It’s just that the various pivot points and spindles get dry and arthritic over time, combined with voltage drop, dodgy wiring, poor earths, PO fixes, etc.
    deja vu 25 likes this.
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    Luke I did note your comment, "It is almost like they have a quota they have to knock back!" Well in Victoria it is the norm to fail a car over a certain age the first time because the authorities 'believe' no car over a certain age would pass a RWC first time. I did ask the Inspector to do a first time pass but he said they would pull his licence if he did! He then of course ticked all the boxes as the car was fully RWC and even ADR compliant to within a 25.4mm of it's life. (UC 'Trana running a 186 and Trimatic...still clogging my driveway.)
    Brendan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluey504 View Post
    Luke I did note your comment, "It is almost like they have a quota they have to knock back!" Well in Victoria it is the norm to fail a car over a certain age the first time because the authorities 'believe' no car over a certain age would pass a RWC first time. I did ask the Inspector to do a first time pass but he said they would pull his licence if he did! He then of course ticked all the boxes as the car was fully RWC and even ADR compliant to within a 25.4mm of it's life. (UC 'Trana running a 186 and Trimatic...still clogging my driveway.)
    Brendan.
    There was a sympathetic local rego guy who'd fail you at first if the car was shod with new tyres.
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    Wow....I've read this thread with interest. I think I must be lucky, because the local roadworthy guys here seem to have a reasonable amount of common sense. They usually ask you if you're selling the car or getting a roadworthy to sell the car. If you're selling it, they're a bit more stringent. For example, if you're selling the car, it's common for older cars to be failed because the retractable seatbelts don't retract quick enough. I once had a car pass a roadworthy with a big rust hole on the inside of the front passenger side door. I was registering it for my own use and the rust hole wasn't visible from the outside of the car as long as the door was closed. It was a door.....not an A-pillar or chassis member etc, so they let it go. And fair enough too, I think. It's an old car.
    It seems that getting an old car roadworthy checked is pretty much a hit or miss affair. It quite likely depends on what side of bed the examiner got out of, and possibly also depends on the number of commonsense pills swallowed that morning. I know there are all sorts of ADRs that cover all sorts of parameters, but I also think that alot of these parameters are designed to protect/guide inspectors that are still wet behind the ears....i.e.they don't really have enough life experience or real life engineering experience to have the confidence to "make the call" when it comes to determining the roadworthiness of an older vehicle.
    It seems that every single little thing has to have a procedure these days......it seems that "guidelines/procedures" have to be written up for every single parameter, perhaps to "protect" the examiner that doesn't have the real world experience to be able to discern what constitutes an unreasonable risk to the owner or to other road users. Whatever the "ADRs" state, I can't help but feel that Deja vu 25 has been dealt the rough end of the pineapple
    Cheers
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    I have also had a great run from the roadworthy guys in QLD. They seem to recognise that old cars are old cars and if you are going to use it and are an enthusiast then you will do a reasonable job to make sure it is safe. One told me that rust in a non structural part so long as it is not of danger to people near the car or hit by the car nor effects the function is allowable. Hence a rust bubble in the top of a non structral guard was not a problem. He also said the condition of paint work, or, items such as interior roof linings so long as they did not constitute a risk by dropping down on the driver while in progress, were of no concern. As he said we are only concerned with safety not appearance. Although I have heard of someone that was made to build and fit a demister system to a car that had never had more than opening quarter vent windows. Why pick on that when it never had seat belts or any other modern stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I have also had a great run from the roadworthy guys in QLD. They seem to recognise that old cars are old cars and if you are going to use it and are an enthusiast then you will do a reasonable job to make sure it is safe. One told me that rust in a non structural part so long as it is not of danger to people near the car or hit by the car nor effects the function is allowable. Hence a rust bubble in the top of a non structral guard was not a problem. He also said the condition of paint work, or, items such as interior roof linings so long as they did not constitute a risk by dropping down on the driver while in progress, were of no concern. As he said we are only concerned with safety not appearance. Although I have heard of someone that was made to build and fit a demister system to a car that had never had more than opening quarter vent windows. Why pick on that when it never had seat belts or any other modern stuff?
    Exactly. Isn't it good to deal with those guys who apply a little bit of commonsense, and who remember the goal of roadworthy inspections.....to keep the dangerous cars off the road. I had a mobile roadworthy guy inspect my 1963 International Aaco (not ACCO) when I was first putting it on the road. I had rebuilt the suspension and brakes and checked the steering, and fitted new tyres all round. I made sure all the electricals were working "as advertised". I was a bit concerned about the appearance (I hadn't cut some minor rust out of the cab yet) but the roadworthy guy said the same thing.....he wasn't interested in the appearance. Just the safety aspects.
    I'd be interested to know if the ADR concerning wiper speed had been in existence at the time the R17 was built and imported to Australia. A roadworthy guy once told me that my 1963 Vespa doesn't have to have indicators because it wasn't manufactured with them. It was kind of fun to ride down the road in my open faced helmet giving the appropriate hand signals at corners.

    It is funny (sometimes) to hear what some people try to get past the roadworthy guys. I think that when you're up front and honest with them, it benefits everyone. That applies to all areas of life, of course, but I once had a neighbour who asked me to recommend a "good mobile roadworthy guy" to check out a little old Corolla he was trying to put on the road. The roadworthy guy later told me that the car had a windscreen with a million cracks in it from one side to the other (and back, lol) and that he got abused when he wouldn't hand out the roadworthy but still charged them the $100 for the inspection, lol. So yes, I understand the varying levels of experience that roadworthy inspectors sometimes have to deal with. Mind you, the guy with the Corolla had about two teeth and had a shower once a month whether he needed it or not.......you get the picture.
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    Fellow Frogger! deja vu 25's Avatar
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    Agreed - it really does vary and it is the judgement call of the individual inspector and really does seem to depend on which side of the bed he/she gets out of an any given day. I had always believed that a car should be up to spec at the time it was ADR'd for Australia.
    I have removed, the washer motor, cleaned the contacts, re-greased and lubricated all moving parts, and to be honest they wipers are pretty much the same speed that they were before i did this. At least when I take the car back I will be the one that turns the wipers on and will be able to show both slow and fast speeds. I will also have the engine running as well.

    I will try and time the wipers tonight and see if they come up to scratch with the ADR specs.
    As I mentioned in an earlier post - Lachlan's Fuego has slower wipers and they passed without incident - WTF!

    Completely agree with you CarNut - the inspectors would deal with some complete yobbos at times and they have to be wary. Looking at it in reflection, I suppose it could have been worse and he could have found more things wrong. My frustration was the fact that it was a currently registered car with a current roadworthy that was only 5 days old!!
    Cheers - Luke

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    Quote Originally Posted by deja vu 25 View Post
    ......My frustration was the fact that it was a currently registered car with a current roadworthy that was only 5 days old!!
    5 days is a long time!!
    My windscreen has cracked within minutes of the leaving the inspection station.

    Jo
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    I'd tell them to stick it up their, well, where the sun don't reach.
    Last time I took the Rx4 for a RWC after replacing the rear door a couple of years ago, the young IDIOT there tried to fail the rear glass section because unlike a couple of different cars, it didn't go up on it's own when he opened. I argued with him for 5 minute and told him I would go elsewhere and report the shop. He eventually relented after going and getting his dad to speak to me as dad owned the shop. This one kid also managed to find an apparent flat spot in the acceleration of the car WTF?
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    deja vu, just tell the inspector you are using Rain-X
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    It would be interesting to know if the ADR regarding wipers was in existence when my CX Prestige came into the country. It's a '79 model. With one wiper blade, and a big sceen to cover, it is bucketloads better in torrential rain than my '95 LTD. I could sail past more modern cars in the big Cit, when they'd be having to pull over for lack of vision.
    Mind you, if you live in Queensland at the moment, you've probably forgotten where the wiper switch IS.

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    Yes true but you had better read the owners manual as they have promised, promised 50 mm this week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Yes true but you had better read the owners manual as they have promised, promised 50 mm this week.
    I'd better go and make sure that my wiper blades haven't dried up and fallen off!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarNut View Post
    I'd better go and make sure that my wiper blades haven't dried up and fallen off!!!!!!!!
    Good thinking I had better do that as well. Actually I have grand sons that have never seen wipers operating, they'll be fascinated.

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