4CV Shift rod seal R and R
  • Help
Results 1 to 21 of 21
Like Tree1Likes

Thread: 4CV Shift rod seal R and R

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Willits, CA USA
    Posts
    72

    Default 4CV Shift rod seal R and R

    Hi,
    Newbie back for more help.
    Simply, can the rear transaxle cover be removed with the power unit in place? I have a manual, the procedure for replacing the shaft seal looks fairly straightforward.

    Thanks!
    Alan
    (norcal usa)

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    2,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Hi,
    Newbie back for more help.
    Simply, can the rear transaxle cover be removed with the power unit in place? I have a manual, the procedure for replacing the shaft seal looks fairly straightforward.
    Thanks! Alan (norcal usa)
    Hi Alan,
    Would that be the front cover of the transaxle ? We are all upside down here in Aussie !!
    Jaahn

  3. #3
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Alan,
    Would that be the front cover of the transaxle ? We are all upside down here in Aussie !!
    Jaahn


    Yes, it can be done with the gearbox in the car.

    It is a bit fiddly and the area around the end casting needs to be cleaned properly first.

    The workshop manuals have different instructions depending upon which gearbox is in the car: it needs to be in first or reverse gear depending upon which gearbox you have (BP3 or 289) if I recall correctly.

    It is a good opportunity to fix up slop in the gear linkage joint at the gearbox and to consider removing, cleaning and relubricating the rotating inner of the speedometer drive cable system too.

    Have fun....
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Willits, CA USA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Thanks John,
    I appreciate the help.
    Already have the area well scrubbed, was that part of the fun?
    Cheers, Alan

  5. #5
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Thanks John,
    I appreciate the help.
    Already have the area well scrubbed, was that part of the fun?
    Cheers, Alan
    Sure was!

    For that gear linkage joint, I replaced the two slightly worn pins that go through the square metal block and it greatly improved the gearchange action. It's still a wide gate of course. You get a couple of stainless steel long shank bolts with Nyloc nuts, just a tiny bit too large for the hole, and then carefully enlarge the holes. This is not as easy as it sounds as the steel in the block is super hard. I carefully opened the hole out with my Dremel until the bolts were both sliding fits, then used Moly grease on them. It's quite an improvement.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Willits, CA USA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Wasn't able to get the cover off. It was definitely fouling the bodywork/rear floor.
    The car is a Jolly, but I believe that area is stock 4CV, maybe not?

    It is pretty low miles (how far can you go in a Jolly) so that shift universal feels tight, I won't need to employ your clever upgrade.

    Looks like I'll be removing the power train, any pointers? I thing I'll crib up some timber pieces on a small four wheel dolly to support the oil pan, and roll it out on its' road wheels.

    Best, Alan

  7. #7
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Wasn't able to get the cover off. It was definitely fouling the bodywork/rear floor.
    The car is a Jolly, but I believe that area is stock 4CV, maybe not?

    It is pretty low miles (how far can you go in a Jolly) so that shift universal feels tight, I won't need to employ your clever upgrade.

    Looks like I'll be removing the power train, any pointers? I thing I'll crib up some timber pieces on a small four wheel dolly to support the oil pan, and roll it out on its' road wheels.

    Best, Alan
    You have a Jolly? Wow. I thought they had a 4CV floorpan (but Marvin McFalls of ROCNA would know the answer I think, as he had one once). You might only need to unbolt the lower part of the cross member attaching brackets from the chassis rails and gently lower the transaxle enough for the housing to clear whatever is fouling it (at the top I presume). If that works, you won't need to undo very much, but I've no idea exactly where the brake pipe goes on a Jolly. you could replace those rubber mounts at the same time, or at least the bottom halves. My 4CV has the main rear copper line attached to the gearbox for example, and I'd need to unfasten it from the tee-piece at the cross member.

    If it doesn't need to move down much at the end of the gearbox to get the end casing off, the pivoting angle might be small enough for the engine mounts just to flex a bit without damage. I vaguely remember mine didn't have much space but it did come off - I have replaced those rubber mounts, so maybe I had to do myself what I've just suggested!! I can't quite remember to be honest, but it makes sense that I might have had to.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    2,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Wasn't able to get the cover off. It was definitely fouling the bodywork/rear floor.
    The car is a Jolly, but I believe that area is stock 4CV, maybe not?
    It is pretty low miles (how far can you go in a Jolly) so that shift universal feels tight, I won't need to employ your clever upgrade.
    Looks like I'll be removing the power train, any pointers? I thing I'll crib up some timber pieces on a small four wheel dolly to support the oil pan, and roll it out on its' road wheels.
    Best, Alan
    Hi Alan,
    JOLLY GOOD SIR.

    The floor pan would have had some strengthening perhaps, due to the removal of the roof and the doors, so that might explain any difference to a standard car.

    GEE a JOLLY droooling on !
    Jaahn

  9. #9
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Alan,
    JOLLY GOOD SIR.

    The floor pan would have had some strengthening perhaps, due to the removal of the roof and the doors, so that might explain any difference to a standard car.

    GEE a JOLLY droooling on !
    Jaahn
    Exactly. Not many Jolly examples left. Amazing.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  10. #10
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Maybe all you need to do is to support the oil pan (that's sump in our language) and loosen the rear, engine mount cross member, and release the main, transaxle cross member, with the body up and supported and just lower, very carefully, the engine-transaxle together until the gearbox end casing can slide off. Unless the Jolly floor pan is very different from a 4Cv, which I doubt except for longitudinal strengthening perhaps, it shouldn't be too involved. If you are going to pull the whole unit out, you are in for a lot of work that might not be needed.

    Photos from underneath might help.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    tweed heads
    Posts
    1,544

    Default

    depending on how much room you require you could also ,unbolt the cross member at the rear of the engine were it attaches to the body, then jack the engine up from the rear ,i recall accessing the four bolts that secure the gearbox to the cross member,with a jack under the diff , through the inspection plate behind the rear seat ,this may differ on the jolly, pugs

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Willits, CA USA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Alan,
    JOLLY GOOD SIR.

    The floor pan would have had some strengthening perhaps, due to the removal of the roof and the doors, so that might explain any difference to a standard car.

    GEE a JOLLY droooling on !
    Jaahn
    Haven't seen a stock 4CV in a while, but it sure looks unmodified in that area.
    The obvious mods to the floor and sills etc are really nicely done. I'm very impressed with the quality.

    I had an Intermeccanica Italia a few years ago, the welds were mostly poor, the right side didn't match the left, and it is said that they came from the "factory" already rusty! Ghia was clearly a quality shop.

    I love the car, feel lucky to add it to my "collection". It was previously seen on AF in a few posts from Sherrie Dent.

    I think it will be good to familiarize myself with r and r of the motor trans. I'll fix the seal, clean everything up, and then remove and detail again before it goes in for paint. Then I'll have some experience/confidence working around fresh (expensive) paint.

    Thanks for all the help and comments.

    My floorpans, the recessed original areas are a bit thin, with a few areas that need to be fixed. Is there a secret source for quality original style pans? I've seen a pair of repros that were not even close. Still trying to decide whether to patch, or fabricate some pans on my own.

    Cheers, Alan

  13. #13
    Simon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    6,203

    Default

    Just some additional useless info, having just looked at this thread. And in addition, I've never done the same job before.

    The task to remove the rear cover to replace the speedo drive gear and worm is listed in the Renault OTS document from March 1958, I'm guessing a 1960 Renault Jolly would not be too much different:

    "31.305 - Remove and refit the speedometer pinion and worm assembly for inspection or replacement.

    This operation includes: - Partially remove and refit the power unit with removal of speedometer cover (R1062 - R1090) 4.00 hours"


    From that I'm guessing at least the power unit would have to be at least loosened from the body to tilt the nose of the gearbox down. It would likely be a good opportunity to remove the power unit to clean everything up, check the clutch plate, replace the rubber mounts etc, so it is all tickety-boo for a long period of time.

    Also attached is a pic from the Dauphine manual (The earlier 4CV manual has a similar but even less detailed description of removal) detailing the removal of the speedo drive casing from the three-speed Type 314 gearbox. There looks to be a couple of things to note to make it easier to remove.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 4CV Shift rod seal R and R-type-314-small.jpg  
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
    2002 Land Rover Defender Td5 130 - ex-CFA Region 4
    2005 Renaultsport Clio 182 Cup

  14. #14
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Haven't seen a stock 4CV in a while, but it sure looks unmodified in that area.
    The obvious mods to the floor and sills etc are really nicely done. I'm very impressed with the quality.

    I had an Intermeccanica Italia a few years ago, the welds were mostly poor, the right side didn't match the left, and it is said that they came from the "factory" already rusty! Ghia was clearly a quality shop.

    I love the car, feel lucky to add it to my "collection". It was previously seen on AF in a few posts from Sherrie Dent.

    I think it will be good to familiarize myself with r and r of the motor trans. I'll fix the seal, clean everything up, and then remove and detail again before it goes in for paint. Then I'll have some experience/confidence working around fresh (expensive) paint.

    Thanks for all the help and comments.

    My floorpans, the recessed original areas are a bit thin, with a few areas that need to be fixed. Is there a secret source for quality original style pans? I've seen a pair of repros that were not even close. Still trying to decide whether to patch, or fabricate some pans on my own.

    Cheers, Alan
    Most of the repair panels I've seen are for corners of A an B pillars and odd bits and pieces - I've never really looked for floor sections. I suspect there's nothing there that a good panel guy couldn't do locally.

    Great you've got hold of it and appreciate what you have. I see Simon has weighed in with good advice too!

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    Take the cross member bolts loose above the rear wheelz. You can let the box sag just enough to clear the body. If you can extract the shift shaft without completely removing the roll pin you will miss having to get that pin started in the hole again. I did one of these start to finish in 1.5.hours under the car.

    Doing the Daffyduck dance via the AussieFrogs app. With a cane! gimp quack quack ow ow ow.

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Willits, CA USA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    Take the cross member bolts loose above the rear wheelz. You can let the box sag just enough to clear the body. If you can extract the shift shaft without completely removing the roll pin you will miss having to get that pin started in the hole again. I did one of these start to finish in 1.5.hours under the car.

    Doing the Daffyduck dance via the AussieFrogs app. With a cane! gimp quack quack ow ow ow.
    Thanks Daffy,
    That worked, took me a while to get it apart, just gently lifted the sills in front of the rear wheels with a floor jack each side. The caps only needed to move less than 1/4 " to give plenty of room at the cover.

    Sorry to hear about the busted wing, hope it is not too serious. I'd like to talk to you about parts sources in the US, would you mind emailing me directly? agrossman@pacific.net

    Thanks to all for the help and comments.

    Best, Alan

  17. #17
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    That is it. But you don't need to touch the roll pin until the casing is on the bench if it is a three-speed, e.g. 289, gearbox. But you will need it in either first or reverse, depending upon gearbox. If it has a four speed gearbox, then the fun begins with the roll pin.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Littlehampton, S.A.
    Posts
    23,618

    Default

    I think some Jolly happy snaps are in order
    cheers,

    John

  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Thanks Daffy,
    That worked, took me a while to get it apart, just gently lifted the sills in front of the rear wheels with a floor jack each side. The caps only needed to move less than 1/4 " to give plenty of room at the cover.

    Sorry to hear about the busted wing, hope it is not too serious. I'd like to talk to you about parts sources in the US, would you mind emailing me directly? agrossman@pacific.net

    Thanks to all for the help and comments.

    Best, Alan
    Pleasure. That's exactly what I was trying to say in the first place - Daffy made it much clearer though. It's a job worth doing, as they can leak like a sieve if that seal is worn out. Best to put one of the standard boots on too, to keep grit off the sliding shaft.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Willits, CA USA
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Stuck again.
    There is a machined sleeve behind the cover, that I removed to clean the old gasket off.
    It has two long longitudinal slots, in the manual they are shown as holes (a slightly different iteration, I presume)
    Do those line up with the slot (and the hole 180 degrees opposite) in the case?

    I hope this is clear, could send a pic, or learn how to attach one if needed.

    Thanks!
    Alan

  21. #21
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    11,298

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by facelnut View Post
    Stuck again.
    There is a machined sleeve behind the cover, that I removed to clean the old gasket off.
    It has two long longitudinal slots, in the manual they are shown as holes (a slightly different iteration, I presume)
    Do those line up with the slot (and the hole 180 degrees opposite) in the case?

    I hope this is clear, could send a pic, or learn how to attach one if needed.

    Thanks!
    Alan
    If I recall this sleeve holds the gearbox shaft in place longitudinally, but it's been a while since I saw mine. I honestly can't remember the answer to your question as I didn't remove that sleeve last time I did the job, so didn't actually look at it closely, but one of the others will I'm sure. I'm away for a few weeks for work reasons, so don't think I've run out of helpfulness if I'm absent!
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •