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    Icon5 16TS problem

    While still battling to find all the leaks in my DS now my ever reliable TS has a problem.

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    It suddenly developed a rattle in the engine, most noticeable at idle, and the idle is rough. Once underway performance seems normal.
    The noise seems deeper than a too wide tappet and is related to engine revs.
    I have disconnected each plug in turn and can't identify a particular cylinder.

    All bright ideas are most welcome. Don
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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Timing chain tensioner? Can you be sure its little gauze strainer isn't blocked, and the tensioner is released?

    (This is assuming you've checked your valve lash.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tresbon2 View Post
    While still battling to find all the leaks in my DS now my ever reliable TS has a problem.

    It suddenly developed a rattle in the engine, most noticeable at idle, and the idle is rough. Once underway performance seems normal.
    The noise seems deeper than a too wide tappet and is related to engine revs.
    I have disconnected each plug in turn and can't identify a particular cylinder.

    All bright ideas are most welcome. Don


    A bit more info if you can.
    Where abouts in the engine? Up top under the rocker cover like tappets, down low in the sump like bearings, about the middle like gidgeons, at the back near the firewall like timing chain.
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    As David C says, it could be a lot of things based on the description.

    It is time to get the magic stethoscope screwdriver out to more closely ascertain where the noise it coming from. It it a ring-a-ding-ping from slipped timing (if say a Ducellier dizzy has really dropped its guts and is overly advanced - never heard of that happening, but the retaining clamp could be loose), then the motor could gradually be chewing on a top piston ring, get one of those neat epidiascope thingys to look down the plug hole. Or a whole pile of other things from simple to really expensive.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Timing chain tensioner? Can you be sure its little gauze strainer isn't blocked, and the tensioner is released?

    (This is assuming you've checked your valve lash.)
    Hi. I have not checked the valve lash yet, but the noise does not appear to be from that area (I'm very familiar with that sort of noise) similarly it does not seem to be from the timing chain area or to sound like the typical chain noise.

    Don
    Citroen DS21 Pallas 1970 Renault 16TS 1976 Renault 5TS 1981

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    A bit more info if you can.
    Where abouts in the engine? Up top under the rocker cover like tappets, down low in the sump like bearings, about the middle like gidgeons, at the back near the firewall like timing chain.
    Hi. Using my special screwdriver type stethoscope the noise appears to come from the middle of the engine. It does not sound like a main or big end bearing problem in that it does not mvary with load. Without cutting a hole in the engine bulkhead I can't get near the timing chain area but it does not sound like a typical t/chain noise.
    Don
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    As David C says, it could be a lot of things based on the description.

    It is time to get the magic stethoscope screwdriver out to more closely ascertain where the noise it coming from. It it a ring-a-ding-ping from slipped timing (if say a Ducellier dizzy has really dropped its guts and is overly advanced - never heard of that happening, but the retaining clamp could be loose), then the motor could gradually be chewing on a top piston ring, get one of those neat epidiascope thingys to look down the plug hole. Or a whole pile of other things from simple to really expensive.......
    Hi. I have used my screwdriver stethoscope as suggested. That indicates that the noise is around the middle section of the motor. The dizzy, alternator and w/pump sound normal. Whatever it is, can it be pure coincidence that the idle became rough at the same time as the noise started? There is no sign of pinging due to over advance or poor fuel.
    I hope it is not a piston ring problem, but if i did get hold of an epidiascope (& i don't know where I could) and looked down the plughole what would i see if it was a ring problem?
    In decades of running French cars, many being real cheapies, I've never had a problem with engine internals. Maybe my time has come!

    Don
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    Instead of a epidiascope, why don't you just drop the sump and:
    A/. Check what it has in it apart from lubricant and
    B/. Depending in what's in the sump look up at the bores for scoring etc?
    C/. Remove the head, look for huge carbon deposits, bit's of ring on the piston tops, chunks out of valves etc.
    D/. Another not cheap but fairly accurate diagnosis could be an oil lab test.
    E/. Failing anything to do with the above, check the ignition delivery to the cylinders, which is probably where you should have started anyway.
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    It could still be a whole raft load of various things. "Middle of engine" is also ambiguous, middle upper/lower, or middle front/rear? I presume all the easy things have been checked, loose/warped carby face/displaced gaskets, loose/displaced gaskets on inlet/exhaust manifold, loose/displaced breather hoses, etc etc..........
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    I think it is time for some serious testing, as you seem fairly confident that the noise is coming from the middle of the engine and you had rough idle all of a sudden. It does sound like a ring problem to me (broken compression ring(s). I have had such a problem on the 1.4 sierra engines but never on the R16 engines. To prove this theory either way you will need to do a compression test at the very least.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    I think it is time for some serious testing, as you seem fairly confident that the noise is coming from the middle of the engine and you had rough idle all of a sudden. It does sound like a ring problem to me (broken compression ring(s). I have had such a problem on the 1.4 sierra engines but never on the R16 engines. To prove this theory either way you will need to do a compression test at the very least.
    We all know of camshaft-cam follower matters on the 16TS engine, but if this noise goes away with higher revs, I presume it isn't that?

    Compression test, fibre-optic inspection through the plug holes (Jaycar sell them), oil pressure test - even if only a gauge bolted on directly where the low pressure light screws in, check valve clearances...

    You have to sense serious work coming up..

    Good luck with it.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    We all know of camshaft-cam follower matters on the 16TS engine, but if this noise goes away with higher revs, I presume it isn't that?

    Compression test, fibre-optic inspection through the plug holes (Jaycar sell them), oil pressure test - even if only a gauge bolted on directly where the low pressure light screws in, check valve clearances...

    You have to sense serious work coming up..

    Good luck with it.
    Hello John. I finally got a chance to check the compressions today and, no. 2 was down to 35psi. So i need to have a look down the plughole and or take the head off.
    Tell me about the camshaft-cam followers problems - I don't know about them.

    cheers, Don
    Citroen DS21 Pallas 1970 Renault 16TS 1976 Renault 5TS 1981

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by tresbon2 View Post
    Hello John. I finally got a chance to check the compressions today and, no. 2 was down to 35psi. So i need to have a look down the plughole and or take the head off.
    Tell me about the camshaft-cam followers problems - I don't know about them.

    cheers, Don
    Hi Don

    The cam followers seem to wear their hard facing away, but this happens over time.

    When you did your compression test did you do a wet test (teaspoon of oil down the spark plug hole)?
    When doing a compression test you need to do them dry and wet, if the wet figures are significantly higher it usually indicates a piston ring problem.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Hi Don

    The cam followers seem to wear their hard facing away, but this happens over time.

    When you did your compression test did you do a wet test (teaspoon of oil down the spark plug hole)?
    When doing a compression test you need to do them dry and wet, if the wet figures are significantly higher it usually indicates a piston ring problem.
    Hi Col. Thanks for the advice re cam followers etc. I totally forgot to do the wet compression test! Will do tomorrow.

    Don
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    I JUST DID THE WET TEST AND IT CAME UP TO 120 - so I have a ring and/or piston problem. Maybe I should have treated the old girl a bit more gently. What a shame the car is out of warranty! I wonder if Renault will come to the party.
    I may be able to take a look down the plughole but I guess it's a head off next.
    Don
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    Sounds like a popped piston ring to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tresbon2 View Post
    I JUST DID THE WET TEST AND IT CAME UP TO 120 - so I have a ring and/or piston problem. Maybe I should have treated the old girl a bit more gently. What a shame the car is out of warranty! I wonder if Renault will come to the party.
    I may be able to take a look down the plughole but I guess it's a head off next.
    Don
    I think you'll have to look at the side of the piston not the top. Bad luck. Still sleeve kit and bearings and check cam and cam followers and she'll be like new....
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I think you'll have to look at the side of the piston not the top.
    Not necessarily, the noise is from portions of the escaped piston ring getting hammered between the piston and the head, they get broken up and come out through the valve. Which is when the can noise go away, and then return when the next portion of ring comes up to be hammered. So the top of the piston and the combustion chamber in the head will look like it has been nibbled by a rat. Hence the earlier suggestion to use an epidiascope down the plug hole.

    If the piston has lost a skirt, the tapping noise would likely go away when the spark plug for that cylinder was disconnected. Which from the earlier observations by the owner didn't occur.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Not necessarily, the noise is from portions of the escaped piston ring getting hammered between the piston and the head, they get broken up and come out through the valve. Which is when the can noise go away, and then return when the next portion of ring comes up to be hammered. So the top of the piston and the combustion chamber in the head will look like it has been nibbled by a rat. Hence the earlier suggestion to use an epidiascope down the plug hole.

    If the piston has lost a skirt, the tapping noise would likely go away when the spark plug for that cylinder was disconnected. Which from the earlier observations by the owner didn't occur.
    I had a look down the the plughole with a mini USB endoscope, but no.2 did not look any different to no. 1 - just carbon deposits. Except that there appeared to be a gap in the space between the piston and the cylinder wall. Maybe a piece of ring missing?

    I have just got the head off and it all appears normal i.e. piston top not marked, liner walls not marked.
    Have yet to get the piston down to the bottom cos haven't fixed the liners down yet. Tomorrow may bring more clues or, time to get the piston out. I will take the engine and trans out as I need to fix a leaking rear main seal.
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    The symptoms sound like you might have a piston which has broken in half, a problem I experienced several times back in my 16TS owning days, amazingly they will still run quite well in that situation, I towed a trailer fully loaded with camping gear through the sand and down the beach to get out of Rainbow Bay in Qld. and then home to Brisbane.

    regards
    Neil

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    Quote Originally Posted by TassieExec View Post
    The symptoms sound like you might have a piston which has broken in half, a problem I experienced several times back in my 16TS owning days, amazingly they will still run quite well in that situation, I towed a trailer fully loaded with camping gear through the sand and down the beach to get out of Rainbow Bay in Qld. and then home to Brisbane.

    regards
    Neil
    Thanks Neil. I guess the only way I will know is to pull the piston out. I did have a worrying thought this morning - that I may have taken the compression on that cylinder with out having the bottom of the gauge seating properly ( and that the second check with or without the oil would have been much higher) Oh well, we will see.

    I have another question. Has anyone had a leaking rear main seal and if so where did the oil leak appear from? In my case there is oil leaking, in a minor way, all around the edges of the sump. The main leak is off the crossmember under the bellhousing end of the engine. But I have just found that there was a certain amount of leakage from the rocker cover joint and down the LHS of the engine.

    Don
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    Quote Originally Posted by TassieExec View Post
    The symptoms sound like you might have a piston which has broken in half, a problem I experienced several times back in my 16TS owning days, amazingly they will still run quite well in that situation, I towed a trailer fully loaded with camping gear through the sand and down the beach to get out of Rainbow Bay in Qld. and then home to Brisbane.

    regards
    Neil
    I had a TS engine with the bottom half of the piston broken off as well. The top of the piston looked fine from above but chunks of the piston and lower ring were floating around the crank and sump.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 16TS problem-ts-broken-piston-2.jpg   16TS problem-ts-broken-piston.jpg   16TS problem-ts-broken-piston-3.jpg  

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    Could be part of the piston skirt broken off below the gudgin pin ,allowing the piston to rock back and forth as it moves ,upsetting the function of the rings ,so low compression .drop the sump and see what you find ,or even draining the oil may give you some clues.pugs

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    Quote Originally Posted by TassieExec View Post
    The symptoms sound like you might have a piston which has broken in half, a problem I experienced several times back in my 16TS owning days, amazingly they will still run quite well in that situation, I towed a trailer fully loaded with camping gear through the sand and down the beach to get out of Rainbow Bay in Qld. and then home to Brisbane.

    regards
    Neil
    Several times?? Wow. How on earth did you manage that?
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarosa View Post
    I had a TS engine with the bottom half of the piston broken off as well. The top of the piston looked fine from above but chunks of the piston and lower ring were floating around the crank and sump.
    Amazing what will run.

    For Tresbon2, what do you mean by the "rear seal"? I reckon sump off is the obvious approach next for you.
    JohnW

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