R17 electric window mechanisims are #@&$!!
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  1. #1
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    Default R17 electric window mechanisims are #@&$!!

    Slight problem with the R17 windows... They wont go up - or down.

    It coming on summer and methinks I'll get the Decoverable for a bit of cruising. I have a couple of spare assemblies that a kind Frogger gave me a while back. Remove the mechanism as easy as and test one of the spares on the bench. No go.

    Isolate the problem to the nylon drive cog in the gearbox, its broken. Check the other one and its similarly rooted. In fact of the 4 units I have on hand all but one have the same problem. The other has been retrofitted with a brass cog and modified spindle. How bad were these units?

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    Is there a fix for these assemblies other than going to a manual. Happy to do that but would need new door cards (mine have been... ahem... refurbished).

    Are there replacement cogs for these units or has anyone found a similar sized cog?

    All the best

    Ex


    R17 electric window mechanisims are #@&$!!-img_1873.jpgR17 electric window mechanisims are #@&$!!-img_1874.jpgR17 electric window mechanisims are #@&$!!-img_1875.jpgR17 electric window mechanisims are #@&$!!-img_1876.jpg




    Note bush pressed into the housing, the slotted hole at the centre of the cog and the hole drilled in the coverplate. (pic 4) a
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

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  2. #2
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    Try Mecaparts or G.B.S Alpine they both have replacement gears available
    The one from MECAPARTS Looks like it is made out of aluminium.
    The G.B.S one is plastic but it comes with a replacement bronze bush for the gear box.


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  3. #3
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    Slight problem with the R17 windows... They wont go up - or down.

    It coming on summer and methinks I'll get the Decoverable for a bit of cruising. I have a couple of spare assemblies that a kind Frogger gave me a while back. Remove the mechanism as easy as and test one of the spares on the bench. No go.

    Isolate the problem to the nylon drive cog in the gearbox, its broken. Check the other one and its similarly rooted. In fact of the 4 units I have on hand all but one have the same problem. The other has been retrofitted with a brass cog and modified spindle. How bad were these units?

    Is there a fix for these assemblies other than going to a manual. Happy to do that but would need new door cards (mine have been... ahem... refurbished).

    Are there replacement cogs for these units or has anyone found a similar sized cog?

    All the best

    Ex


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    Note bush pressed into the housing, the slotted hole at the centre of the cog and the hole drilled in the coverplate. (pic 4) a


    We use to make the brass ones about thirty years ago. My brother did them and sold ship loads all over the place usually through caravelle imports. Norm was running it then and used to buy about a few dozen a month. Then the cars got old and we started getting rusty wrecks that were totally stuffed but the windows still worked. Made us realise there is no repeat business in them and once all the 17's and 16's that were left had them the sales would stop. So about the 2000 we stopped doing them.

    They also fit DeTomaso Pantera and the DeTomaso club in the US bought quite a few also. There was a Lotus that used them too.
    I think Maserati Khamsin used them too.

    So there you go. Find a Pantera, Lotus (Excel I think) or Khamsin being wrecked and your laughing. Might be easier than finding a 15, 16 or 17 these days.
    Last edited by David Cavanagh; 30th September 2013 at 06:02 PM.
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    Fellow Frogger! Jensen's Avatar
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    Yes they are.

    I have got mine working but they are slow or blow a fuse if used together. I am thinking of using relays so that all that current doesn't have to go through the switch. I think Europa mentioned that the switch is a pretty basic design.

    Re the cog, I bought some last year from Maserati Source in the states. eBay link below

    http://r.ebay.com/LhsYsr


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  5. #5
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    If I remember correctly there is a relay but it has some sort of weird circuitry which I have forgotten the details. The other issue is early models had a replaceable (or by passable) thermo activated switch that dropped out if there was an over load. It was mounted on the outside of the motor. Both mine have this by passed. Because you can no longer get them. You just have to make sure you stop when you reach the top or bottom so as not to overload the motor. Apparently on later models the thermo switch was built in and was supposed to reset. My gears were cracked and so I glued them together and strengthened them with epoxy metal. The gears are also available from the R15/17 Amicale Club France.

  6. #6
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    Is the DECOVERABLE a full factory electric sunroof(ie. the whole roof) and what colour is the car??

  7. #7
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    Found this note that I made couple of years ago.

    Sep 9 11 11:16 AM

    Despite testing the electric windows before gluing the water proof seal on the doors and putting the trim back the window motor now wasn't working. So as I mentioned above the circuits are next to useless, it appeared as if the relay was after the battery and then came the fuses and the switch then the electric motor. Perhaps there was some weird electrical balance thing that caused the relay to operate. So I decided to look up the R16 manual that has very detailed circuits and descriptions. Sure enough the relay operates as soon as the key is turned on and stays operated for as long as the key is on. The switches just do their thing when pressed nothing smart at all, but why a relay. Because the ignition switch probably cannot with stand the high currents that might be drawn when both windows might be wound up or down at the same time. The small current needed to operate the relay would have little effect on the ignition switch contacts.

    The motor over temperature cut out switch had gone faulty so all the door trim is off again. Can't buy one so will just by pass it. The operator will just have to ensure that the motor is killed when the glass reaches its limits.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Exfrogger.

    Those gears are crap and have always been that. Now they're 40 years old crap.

    A number of people have done the brass thing in the past, but I can't point you where to get one now. I seem to remember seeing them on ebay.

    If you don't want to dish out to have two (or one) made on order (there's a number of places in WA where they could do it - not sure if they would), I would try two avenues:

    - try to find a better mechanism that works nicely, like a current Hyundai or similar and take that with motors and all and graft it in. That's not going to cost the earth and will probably outlast the rest of the car.

    -try hobby shops. Radio control cars have the highest quality materials these days. You can find an array of pinions like that (idlers for off-road buggies) in an assortment of tough materials like Delrin, Teflon, even titanium. I prefer Delrin. Quiet, self lubricating, close tolerance, it will wear out metals. The secret is to choose the right pitch, and I can't help much there, but perhaps a .32 pitch would be close. There are larger pitches available, just try to get in touch with such a shop and they'll be able to help (or can try). These would probably cost you something like 10-20$ each. Some even have the octogon fitting you have on the originals, and their width is pretty much spot on what you need. Teeth are straight (I seem to remember those are oblique), and that might be a problem (or not).

    In the past, when I had the same problem, I thought about trying a pinion from an R12 windshield wiper. Can't remember if I did it in the end, probably not, so not sure if it can work or not.

    Personally, I would look at option 1 above. Technology has come a long way since the seventies. I am looking at grafting a windshield wiper off a Hyundai in my Pug 205GTI for the same reason. Mine is slow and sluggish and does not show a difference between high and low speed. Plus, the Hyundai one has an adjustment for the intermittent function which I find very useful. Why persist with obsolete technology where newer is better?
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 30th September 2013 at 10:25 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  9. #9
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    Thanks Guys, what you guys know is purely staggering!!!

    I followed the links you provided and I now have a range of options. I should point out that the motors are fine as are the thermal cutout switches. I was able to "service" one by poking a screwdriver though the opening and resetting the contact gap.

    Curiouser and curiouser, I now see that the door cards are from a vehicle with manual winders, the interior "refurbishment" simply covered them. If this is the original interior it means that the wiring was never set up for winders AND when I swung down the fuse board I see that there is a fat grey wire that has been cut and taped back on itself

    Some more questions, if I may:

    For those of you with functioning R17s, do you hear an audible click when you turn on the ignition? I don't.

    As previously noted the insulation on the wiring to the motor degrades. There is a two-into-three junction box between where the wires enter the door and the motor assembly. Can anyone tell me what purposes this serves? It would be easier to repair the wiring if it wasn't there.

    Of course once this is achieved I'll need to tackle the non functioning sunroof motor, and, oh, the fact that the top of the rocker cover has filled with mayonnaise...
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
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  10. #10
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    Hi Shiltzie, the first thing I did was to pull the cover off an R12 wiper motor. No go, too big. As I said the sliders and the mechanism are all fine. If I replace the cog it should be just fine.
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

  11. #11
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    Yes it is. Its Trak Yellow.

    I posted some pics on here a while back but can't seem to find them. Might be the last registered one in Oz.
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    Hi Shiltzie, the first thing I did was to pull the cover off an R12 wiper motor. No go, too big. As I said the sliders and the mechanism are all fine. If I replace the cog it should be just fine.

    Hehehehe! Good reflexes. That's probably what I did.

    But I think the size is not that far. I am pretty sure there would be a car out there with the right cog.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  13. #13
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    As previously noted the insulation on the wiring to the motor degrades. There is a two-into-three junction box between where the wires enter the door and the motor assembly. Can anyone tell me what purposes this serves? It would be easier to repair the wiring if it wasn't there.
    The insulation on the wiring to my 17 winder motors had rotted as well. It could be dangerous and perhaps cause a fire. Not sure about the three into two junction box but wondered if there was an intention at one point time to have a separate wire for up and down rather than just reverse the polarity of both wires at the switches. I can't remember but I might have dumped the junction box and just put normal connectors between the wires.

  14. #14
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    This is the circuit out of the R16 Manual. The window winder circuit is the same in my 17. Not sure about the sunroof.


  15. #15
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    Thanks SR

    This is the little doover called the "junction box". Because the wires are so degraded I'm thinking of dispensing with it and simply making do. Because the polarity of the two input wires is dependent on whether the window is going up or down I'm a tad perplexed as to how the black wire on the motor side is connected. I note that the motor assembly is insulated from the rest of the body so the black must be the common or ground - might pick over it with a multimeter before I attempt to open it up.


    This is the bit:

    R17 electric window mechanisims are #@&$!!-img_0796.jpg
    Last edited by Exfrogger; 2nd October 2013 at 03:13 PM.
    Daily Drivers: R10, R12, R17T(?) Decouvrable

    In the Shed(s):
    R8 (1.4 motor, 4 shock rear end), Dauphine, Pugeot 404

    In the Past:
    Dauphine X2, R10 X lots, R12 X2, R16TS, R17TS

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    According to the wiring diagram there is no constant ground to the motor. This makes sense as the polarity changes via the up-down switch.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    I had a white one 1975, and wondered what happened to it
    DE

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