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  1. #51
    IWS
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    A coupla lads fixing one up...

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    Here's a pleasant way to spend 14:05 minutes, if you don't like the music just turn it off...enjoy

    What a great video! They clearly had fun with that project.

    I kinda like the Fregate - it has a certain daggy charm

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    Here's a link to Fregate Club De France

    http://www.fregate-renault.org/media...e=archives-FCF


    And the dulcet tones of Mario Hacquard

    Last edited by 59 Floride; 6th November 2013 at 10:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    And the dulcet tones of Mario Hacquard

    Noice!
    cheers,

    John

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    It is very nice. Great for a Fregate fan, which I am. Unfortunately my internet is so slow that it takes me 12 minutes to watch the less than 5 minute video. Still I persevered just because it was about the Fregate.

    On the other video, which I don't want to sit through again because of the speed thing, I thought it appeared that some welding was actually bronze brazing. Do you agree. If so how did he do it without buckling the metal? And would it be strong enough? Also would it be legal? Back in the day it was legal to use brazing to build race car chassis providing a certain type of rod was used. Any one have any knowledge of that and what it was, and is it still available and legal? It appears as if some of the assembly of the Floride Caravelle was done using what appears to be bronze brazing.

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    Default Brazing !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    It is very nice. Great for a Fregate fan, which I am. Unfortunately my internet is so slow that it takes me 12 minutes to watch the less than 5 minute video. Still I persevered just because it was about the Fregate.

    On the other video, which I don't want to sit through again because of the speed thing, I thought it appeared that some welding was actually bronze brazing. Do you agree. If so how did he do it without buckling the metal? And would it be strong enough? Also would it be legal? Back in the day it was legal to use brazing to build race car chassis providing a certain type of rod was used. Any one have any knowledge of that and what it was, and is it still available and legal? It appears as if some of the assembly of the Floride Caravelle was done using what appears to be bronze brazing.
    Hi Sunroof,
    Regarding the welding. In times past I used brazing or bronze welding a lot. I was into maintainance and it was applicable to just about every repair. Sheetmetal, broken castings, cracked frames, building up worn shafts, making exhausts etc etc. It's a manualy applied method which has gone out of favour because its slow and hot but still just as effective as it was before. It was used a lot, all bike frames were brazed together up till perhaps 20 years ago. I raced Karts which were brazed frames. The bronze flows into and around the joint so the stress is spread more than a thin line of weld. Strength is excellent.

    I am sure you can find plenty of information on the web and certainly in some of the older welding books. It is done by visual control so is quite satisfying to do as you can see how it is going and adjust as needed. Just a manual skill which is learnt by a bit of practice. Getting the flame right is the key. CIG had a range of rods and fluxes to cover all types required, not sure if they have now.

    jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Sunroof,
    Regarding the welding. In times past I used brazing or bronze welding a lot. I was into maintainance and it was applicable to just about every repair. Sheetmetal, broken castings, cracked frames, building up worn shafts, making exhausts etc etc. It's a manualy applied method which has gone out of favour because its slow and hot but still just as effective as it was before. It was used a lot, all bike frames were brazed together up till perhaps 20 years ago. I raced Karts which were brazed frames. The bronze flows into and around the joint so the stress is spread more than a thin line of weld. Strength is excellent.

    I am sure you can find plenty of information on the web and certainly in some of the older welding books. It is done by visual control so is quite satisfying to do as you can see how it is going and adjust as needed. Just a manual skill which is learnt by a bit of practice. Getting the flame right is the key. CIG had a range of rods and fluxes to cover all types required, not sure if they have now.

    jaahn
    You can even get flux coated rods now , so you don't have to stuff around with dipping the rod into a jar of flux, it makes it even easier.
    If you've got too much traction, you haven't got enough horse power ...




    .2010 Holden Commodore Ute
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    1973 Alpine Renault A310/4 1600 VE

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    It is very nice. Great for a Fregate fan, which I am. Unfortunately my internet is so slow that it takes me 12 minutes to watch the less than 5 minute video. Still I persevered just because it was about the Fregate.

    On the other video, which I don't want to sit through again because of the speed thing, I thought it appeared that some welding was actually bronze brazing. Do you agree. If so how did he do it without buckling the metal? And would it be strong enough? Also would it be legal? Back in the day it was legal to use brazing to build race car chassis providing a certain type of rod was used. Any one have any knowledge of that and what it was, and is it still available and legal? It appears as if some of the assembly of the Floride Caravelle was done using what appears to be bronze brazing.


    Everything was brazed once. When I was an apprentice we brazed everything, I remember doing a cut n shut on a HJ Kingswood with oxy straight across the floor under the rear seat. This was before MIG was around, it wouldn't be legal these days but back then thats just how you did it. Insurance companies agreed.

    While doing that particular Kingswood we ran out of bronze wire so we snuck up stairs to the locker rooms and pinched some coat hangers and continued welding using coat hanger wire. We were one of the biggest panel shops in North Melbourne back then, 40 years ago and that was the normal repair process, I'm probably not suppose to mention the bit about the coat hangers though.
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    Default Brazing !!

    Hi David and all
    While brazing is not " current industry practice", it certainly was in times past. I fail to see why it would not be "legal" as it is a recognised professional welding technique. Certainly a lot of older cars had bits held together like that and there was no reason to doubt it. Spot welding just took over the body joining as it was quicker. I suppose insurance companies would not pay for it but that's because they want fast cheap jobs.

    Brazing continued as a repair method as Dave said for quite a while, until spot welders and then Mig became available to the general trade. Faster and perhaps less skill required for average jobs. However in general industry brazing was well used for a lot longer, as it is versatile and you can do a lot with an oxy set and also take it almost anywhere.

    Those coat hanger welding rods, of course were steel, not bronze. We all used them ! They often gave sh*t welds if there was a coating on the wire Brazing is easier than oxy welding on thin rusty parts because you do not actually have to melt the metal so it does not "disappear" as you weld and blow holes. That's the theory anyway
    jaahn

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    The satisfying part about car repairs back when was if the surface was a little lumpy after the welding, you just wiped it with lead for a nice finish. Another fast disappearing skill set!
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi David and all
    While brazing is not " current industry practice", it certainly was in times past. I fail to see why it would not be "legal" as it is a recognised professional welding technique. Certainly a lot of older cars had bits held together like that and there was no reason to doubt it. Spot welding just took over the body joining as it was quicker. I suppose insurance companies would not pay for it but that's because they want fast cheap jobs.

    Brazing continued as a repair method as Dave said for quite a while, until spot welders and then Mig became available to the general trade. Faster and perhaps less skill required for average jobs. However in general industry brazing was well used for a lot longer, as it is versatile and you can do a lot with an oxy set and also take it almost anywhere.

    Those coat hanger welding rods, of course were steel, not bronze. We all used them ! They often gave sh*t welds if there was a coating on the wire Brazing is easier than oxy welding on thin rusty parts because you do not actually have to melt the metal so it does not "disappear" as you weld and blow holes. That's the theory anyway
    jaahn


    Mig was safer too. A lot of fires started from careless use of an oxy torch. Many a head lining went up in flames while welding a quarter panel on. Plus the distortion from butt welding a C piller was quite a problem. On the plus side it was easier to fill in a hole because you didn't cut the new panel acurately with bronze than with mig.

    Coat hangers were usually galvanised or had some kind of coating which you had to burn off whilst you welded so they weren't really recommended but I do remember my mother complaining her coat hangers disappeared when we were fixing an old car in the shed.

    What we were told to do to stop heat spreading across a panel and buckling the crap out of it was to lay strips of asbestos on either side and weld down the centre, that way the distortion stopped at the asbestos. It was a clever trick and worked well as long as you kept it moist. Imagine what would happen if you suggested that to an employee these days.
    David Cavanagh

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    I can certainly use bronze, it is in my opinion the easiest way to weld. I wasn't sure whether it was used in the motor industry which it seems it was. I also wasn't sure whether it would still be legal. I often worried about it's strength. Until I got a MIG I always used either bronze or steel welding rods on car body work but of course buckling was a problem. Although bog can fix that. I think when we built the space frame for a race car back in 1960/2 we were told we had to use flux coated rods or steel welds using oxy not a stick welder. In fact on the R12 G replica I had to replace a complicated bit on the boot shut area near the taillight and I have done this with oxy and you cannot tell it is not original even without bog. I will be happier about brazing now though. Thanks for the info.

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    Found in a secret stash...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Renault Fregate..-fregate%252010.jpg   Renault Fregate..-fregate%252011.jpg   Renault Fregate..-fregate%252011s.jpg   Renault Fregate..-fregate%252012.jpg   Renault Fregate..-fregate%252013.jpg   Renault Fregate..-fregate%252014.jpg  

    Renault Fregate..-fregate%252015.jpg   Renault Fregate..-fregate%252016.jpg   Renault Fregate..-fregate%25200809.jpg  
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 7th November 2013 at 06:40 PM.

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    Stop it MG, you're making me want one! I've never taken a lot of interest in these old girls but they seem to grow on you. I need to drive one!
    cheers,

    John

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    Yes they do seem to have a certain amount of the Renault charm don't they, and quite unique in this part of the world.
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 7th November 2013 at 06:55 PM.

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    Not sure I'd have one in lieu of a Dauphine though, it'd have to be as well as I reckon. As most early Renaults owners have a number of them stashed in their yards, I think that would be acceptable behavior. Space is usually the killer though ...
    cheers,

    John

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    These two Fregates turned up to farewell us at the start of the Tour of France 2009. Note the green one is an automatic.

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    Renault Fregate..-fregate-14.jpg
    I am impressed by the anti-collision preparations!

    The detail in the un-inflated airbag in the lower piccy is superb!
    It's another lovely day! Again!

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim Luck View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Fregate 14.jpg 
Views:	268 
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ID:	49579
    I am impressed by the anti-collision preparations!

    The detail in the un-inflated airbag in the lower piccy is superb!
    In a lot of ways there very similar to the 403 and I remember when my father bought his 403 from Regans the salesman was going on about the crash protection. The dash had padding along the top and bottom to protect your head and knees.


    Funny story.
    During the 80's I had 3 Fregates I was gunna restore and never got around to it and sold them. A mate who at the time sold new VW's at the VW dealership in Footscray had an old preist come in in a 403 wanting to buy a new car.

    The old preist was 85 years old and had had the 403 since new, my mate had never seen one before (dad had traded his on a 504 before we became mates) and remarked how similar they were to Fregates. He asked the old bloke if he new of a Renault Fregate to which the 85 year old preist replied "yes of course I know them, my father still drives one"

    For the only time in his life my car salesman mate was speachless.
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    Some more original promo material..


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Renault Fregate..-capturejhjhj-h.jpg   Renault Fregate..-renault_fregate.jpg   Renault Fregate..-starchiefbloggesso.jpg  
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 21st November 2013 at 06:04 PM.

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    A couple more versions of the Fregate are the Domain and the Manoir. I really like those extended mirrors..


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Renault Fregate..-domaine.jpg   Renault Fregate..-manoir.jpg  

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    Buy the green and white one. Come on G you know you want to, do it man.

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    I am of the opinion it's been sold, so Dauphenstein is back on the radar...and I like this color.


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    If going about it again I would modify a Dauphine over either the R8 or 4CV that I have done. Plenty of room in the engine bay for a 16TS motor,( although now I would perhaps see how difficult it would be to fit a Clio 182 motor), more room inside and in the boot than a 4CV, later suspension and brakes from the R8/10 can be made to fit reasonably easily, and at 650Kg it is only 30-50 Kilos heavier than a 4CV, and around 200Kg lighter than an R10.

    The Fregate would probably be an OK cruiser, but would need a massive lot of work to be exciting.

    My 4CV although reasonably fast, I believe suffers from being too high, too narrow, and too short in the wheelbase. It gets a bit unstable above 160- 170 KPH, where the R8 had the same feeling at 200. I do understand that the original 4CV had a top speed of 105 Kph. The 4CV feels like it wants to change ends quickly on the track, with lots of steering input changes and throttle position whilst cornering hard, but perhaps some more development would solve that. The R8 always felt much better on the track, and I think the Dauphine would be along the same lines.
    J-man likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore View Post
    If going about it again I would modify a Dauphine over either the R8 or 4CV that I have done. Plenty of room in the engine bay for a 16TS motor,( although now I would perhaps see how difficult it would be to fit a Clio 182 motor), more room inside and in the boot than a 4CV, later suspension and brakes from the R8/10 can be made to fit reasonably easily, and at 650Kg it is only 30-50 Kilos heavier than a 4CV, and around 200Kg lighter than an R10.

    The Fregate would probably be an OK cruiser, but would need a massive lot of work to be exciting.

    My 4CV although reasonably fast, I believe suffers from being too high, too narrow, and too short in the wheelbase. It gets a bit unstable above 160- 170 KPH, where the R8 had the same feeling at 200. I do understand that the original 4CV had a top speed of 105 Kph. The 4CV feels like it wants to change ends quickly on the track, with lots of steering input changes and throttle position whilst cornering hard, but perhaps some more development would solve that. The R8 always felt much better on the track, and I think the Dauphine would be along the same lines.
    Given that a Dauphine is only 3mm different in wheelbase to an R8 with same front and rear track dimensions it should be possible to extract the same performance except for differences in 'centre of gravity'.

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    Another nice arse for the collection...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Renault Fregate..-1959_r%7E1.jpg  

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