Help needed for 12G 'RepliCar'
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  1. #1
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    Default Help needed for 12G 'RepliCar'

    Hopefully David Cavanagh or John Carney may see this and if so they may be able to assist?

    I need to replace the clutch in my Renault 12G 'RepliCar' that I bought from John Carney about 7 years or so ago, but I have no idea what clutch it has in it! I took gearbox out today, because thrust bearing had seized and found broken finger on pressure plate. The cluth plate itself is quiet a strange looking thing, with copper colored segments, as the friction material.
    Someone said they thought it was a 'Ceramic Button' cluth and thought it may have been from a Clio Sport, but I really have no idea and have no brand name or part numbers to re-order by!

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    If David or John have any clues I would sure like to hear from them.

    Thanks
    Rod

  2. #2
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    It sounds like the clutch may at least have a custom competition clutch plate, with a brass or ceramic button clutch plate. It wouldn't be a standard Clio Sport part, as that has a normal organic clutch plate.

    I'd imagine that you should be able to find somewhere in Perth to sort it out, but if not, try Adelaide Clutch Service. www.australianclutch.com.au they specialise in repairing competition and oddball type clutches.
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    Thanks Simon

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    Rod,
    The standard 12G uses a Fuego pressure plate and clutch plate with a 16TS thrust bearing. I think thats whats in John's car but it has changed a lot since I last saw it.
    David Cavanagh

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    Thanks David, will check those out, see if they match.
    regards
    Rod

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    Another one for David,
    David, so far I have determined that the gearbox is ex Fuego, with 21 spline primary shaft ( clutch splines) ,but the bell housing is NOT Fuego, it looks like it could be 16TS or maybe R17? The Clutch plate is a Clio Ceramic Button 200mm diameter. The clutch plate itself is in great condition, as new it is 7.7mm thick and the one in there is still 7mm thick, so I can use that. My dilemma is what is the pressure plate and thrust bearing (clutch release bearing) from. It could be 16TS, but it has no pressure pad above the diaphragm fingers and the bearing presses direct onto the diaphragm, whereas the 16TS manual shows a pressure plate with a triangular shaped pressure pad, riveted on 3 x spring arms, above the diaphragm. Maybe there is a later 16TS version, without the pressure pad?. The next dilemma is which thrust bearing, as its certainly not a Fuego , again it could be a 16TS, but I don't have one here to compare it to, so I'm flying blind.

    can you shed any further light on what it might be?

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    Being a 200mm clutch, it sounds like a later 16TS (without thrust pad) or 15TS/17TL/18GTS. The Fuego GTX clutch is 215mm. Any chance of a pic of the bellhousing and thrust bearing mount or the gearbox? That would help with identifying the type of thrust fitted.
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    Ove
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    At the R16TS bellhousing the protection sheet for the flywheel is fixed with 4 screws, whereas R17/R18 have only 3 of them. But i'm shure it's not R16, as due to its straight backside a R16 bellhousing would block the crownwheel.

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    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Rod, which side does the clutch arm (where the cable attaches) come through?

    If its on the left and the arm is verticle then the bellhousing is 16, if its on the right and is horozontal then its 17 or 18. If its about 4" long then its 17, if its about 6" long then its 18.

    Bellhousing can't possibly be Fuego because it has to bolt up to the 807 series engine so it must be 16,17 or 18. It must use a late 16 thrust because its the only one that will fit on those bellhousings. Late 16, 17TL and 18 all use the same clutch kit.

    Here's an idea. Come over and bring it with you and I'll match it up, there's a good excuse for a xmas drink if I ever heard one. "Honey, just going to Melbourne to get a part for the car, be back in a few days."
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    Ove
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Bellhousing can't possibly be Fuego because it has to bolt up to the 807 series engine so it must be 16,17 or 18.
    Fuego Turbo and R18 Turbo were the last models with the 807 (or lateron renamed A5L) engine.

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    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ove View Post
    Fuego Turbo and R18 Turbo were the last car with the 807 engine.
    True, but we didn't get them here. I was talking about Aust delivered off the shelf parts.
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    Ove
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    Renault 17 Turbo

    Where did these Fuego Turbos come from?

  13. #13
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ove View Post
    Renault 17 Turbo

    Where did these Fuego Turbos come from?
    All of them are private imports. Probably UK cars.

    The only Fuego sold here was the GTX and TX. In 2 litre 5 speed only. TX was just a tonned down version of the GTX, no air con, power windows,
    David Cavanagh

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    Thanks David, that has been of great assistance and I can now advise as follows:
    1. Clutch leaver comes out on R/H/S ( drivers side) of bell housing.

    2. Clutch lever rests slightly down hill of horizontal

    3. Clutch lever is exactly 6 inches (150mm) long from centre of pivot arm to centre of cable fulcrum.

    this ALL suggests that it is an R18 bell housing.

    Next question: can you supply me with a NEW pressure plate and thrust bearing to suit?

    if so would you please be so kind as to forward same to me, by Australia Post Air Bag, to Eurocars P.O. Box 784 Victoria Park WA 6979, then let me know cost and I will forward cheque to you immediately. Then I will have it back and running by this time next week!

    regards & thanks

    Rod Slater
    0418 958 735


    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    Rod, which side does the clutch arm (where the cable attaches) come through?

    If its on the left and the arm is verticle then the bellhousing is 16, if its on the right and is horozontal then its 17 or 18. If its about 4" long then its 17, if its about 6" long then its 18.

    Bellhousing can't possibly be Fuego because it has to bolt up to the 807 series engine so it must be 16,17 or 18. It must use a late 16 thrust because its the only one that will fit on those bellhousings. Late 16, 17TL and 18 all use the same clutch kit.

    Here's an idea. Come over and bring it with you and I'll match it up, there's a good excuse for a xmas drink if I ever heard one. "Honey, just going to Melbourne to get a part for the car, be back in a few days."

  15. #15
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    Ureka.....Think I have it!Spoke to David Cavanagh this morning, he didn't have one, but referred me to Ken at Carravelle, unfortunately Ken didn't have what I needed either, but he referred me to Craig at Australian Cluth Industries, in no time at all Craig had me logged into his website, and there it was, the very clutch that I needed. Deal done and its now on its way to Perth and should be in my hands sometime tomorrow, in time to fit it this weekend... Thanks to ALL concerned for their assistance and thanks, once again to Aussie Frogs for providing a forum thru which all FrogTecnique problems can be resolved.

  16. #16
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    Problem solved.... Received the new clutch assembly from Craig, at Australian Clutch, it arrived in Perth day after I ordered it ( thanks Craig) the Box says it suits R15,R16, R17 & R18 with 1.6 engine, so all looking good, pressure plate made in Germany, clutch plate made in UK.
    i am re-using original clutch plate as it is a Ceramic Button plate and is not worn much, still 7mm thick ( compared to 7.7mm new), so only need to use new pressure plate and release bearing from new kit.... But wait, that new release bearing wont fit...oh bugger, what now?
    Seems I have a Fuego gearbox, fitted with an R16 bell housing, which takes a 16TS pressure plate... But not a 16 release bearing?
    After a few words with Kevin Reilly, he pulled out a draw and plonked the exact right thrust bearing on the desk.. It is a Fuego thrust bearing... Fantastic, all solved.
    Today, assisted by Bob Goddard, fitted new pressure plate and thrust bearing and put gearbox back in. Then brought out the 2x 'new' (rebuilt in Spain) driveshafts that I had purchased in 2007 from Caravelle Parts, as NOW seemed like a good opportunity to fit them.

    then struck another whoops... These driveshafts are 15mm shorter than the ones that I just took out!.... So what driveshafts are in THIS car? ( now wouldn't it be nice if the people who built this car (Tigra Motor Sports) had have noted in the log book, ALL the various parts they used to build the machine ) ..... Can't leave car on hoist indefinitely, whilst try to work out, then source a pair of 15mm longer driveshafts... So lets see what happens when I fit the 15mm shorter shafts.... Mmmmm, now that's interesting, the inner & outer joints just 'stretch out' to fit the space available, so now 2x 15mm shorter shafts are fitted, will wait to see what happens, if anything, when job is all finished and back on road?

    Car now off hoist, but still not on road as have sent exhaust manifold and front pipes away to be ceramic coated and starter away to be reconditioned, so will be an 'after Christmas' completion date.


    Merry Christmas all

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Slater View Post
    So lets see what happens when I fit the 15mm shorter shafts.... Mmmmm, now that's interesting, the inner & outer joints just 'stretch out' to fit the space available, so now 2x 15mm shorter shafts are fitted, will wait to see what happens, if anything, when job is all finished and back on road?
    If your cars engine and gearbox mounts are good, probably not much will happen, BUT......if there is a bit of slop in the mounting, and the box rotates when loaded, The inner bearing thingy will catch the casing at the top(which will be at a bit of an angle with the lift from acceleration) and lever itself out of its hole, destroying the cage at the same time as it bends the gearbox mounts.
    I have done this 'gearbox mount mod' myself, so speak from experience.
    You can do a static load test with an assistant in the cockpit rocking the motor back and forth by loading up the drive train in first gear, handbrake on, and observe (from the side of the car) how much the motor and box twist on their mounts.

    Jo

  18. #18
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    Thanks Jo, your comments appreciated and give me some sense of relief as my gearbox is mounted rigidly direct to the chassis at rear. This is done to overcome risk of jumping out of gear under rough full road conditions

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    What modifications have been done to the front end? I'm just wondering if either the wishbones and balljoints, or the wishbone mounting on the chassis rail have been modified to give the car negative camber, and the springs have been altered to provide a lower ride height, that the driveshafts may have been modified and extended. Also, depending on the gearbox installed, the output shafts of the gearbox may have been changed to allow the fitting of alternate driveshafts.

    It is probably best to sort out the problem of driveshafts travel, as if you are braking, or cornering, the driveshaft could hyperextend at the inner joint and part company in severe conditions.
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    Hi Simon, it appears to have standard upper control arms, that have been reinforced. It has fabricated tubular lower control arms and yes it has negative camber. I carefully inspected the shafts of the originals and they do not 'appear' to have been extended.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Slater View Post
    Hi Simon, it appears to have standard upper control arms, that have been reinforced. It has fabricated tubular lower control arms and yes it has negative camber. I carefully inspected the shafts of the originals and they do not 'appear' to have been extended.
    Hi Rod

    If you have neg camber and the upper control arms are standard length, I think it is a strong bet that those lower control arms are extended. I run the 18GTX 5 speed with standard driveshaft mounting points. The box is actually wider than the standard 4 speed, meaning that R12 shafts have to be 'shortened' to allow more compression of the shaft on the sliding joint. This is very important if you are running standard front suspension. Dave at Renwreck (now moved on) used to perform this mod.

    However, if the distance between shaft mounting point and front hub has been increased by lengthening the lower control arm, this need could be cancelled out.

    As Simon says, it all depends what mods have been made to driveshaft mountings at the gearbox end, but bears a little investigation to avoid unnecessary grief.

    Best
    Last edited by Virage Racer; 24th December 2012 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Have had a coffeee and am more awake now
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    Thanks Keith, I will take some measurements and compare to a standard R12
    regards
    Rod

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Food for thought, Rod.

    A mate of mine fitted a UN1 to his fuego and had drive shaft issues.
    Turns out if he simply mix and matched the ends of the shafts, the right length was attained without any modifications.
    You've got to love the renault parts bin mentality.

    Maybe your longer driveshaft is the same flavour, fuego box end and r12 hub end.


    Jo

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    Yes, that IS a possibility Jo, maybe the shafts are a 'Mix-N-Match' combination?.... Will check that possibility out too.

  25. #25
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    Jo is quite likely to be right given that the bearing holders on the Fuego box are different to those on the 12/17/12G boxes and need different inboard driveshaft ends for the seals to run on.
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