R10 front fuel tank and radiator
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default R10 front fuel tank and radiator

    I've done a search for this and I can find is that people do it but there is not really a lot of info on how. So my main questions are where do you put it exactly, what tanks can you use or will I need to get something made? (You are not allowed to weld your own tanks, it comes under the same rule as steering and suspension parts) Also where do you put the filler? As I'm about the start the panel work on the R10S I acquired (it needs a lot, it may actually be more rust then metal) I have no problem with cutting a fuel door into a front guard. I guess the other option is to just have the filler in the boot (it is still called the boot when its at the front?), this is going to be a street registered vehicle so it'll need to be legal.

    There are lots on aluminium fuel cells on ebay but I'm not sure about the legality of these.

    Radiator wise is there anything off the shelf that fits? I'm not a big fan of the whole angled arrangement, it juts looks like its going to get a rock through it. I like the config BrettR's R8, I should be able to make a new front panel will a mouth in it, not standard I know. I have thought about getting a cross flow copper radiator that is the correct width and just cutting it down, even doubling it up, effectively folding it in half.

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    Once I actually get started I post up my progress in the restoration section, its going to be about a 2 year project.

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Depending on how far you intend to drive it, you could always put an R4 tank in (which is effectively what the R8 Gordini's had as a front tank). I would look at a aluminium fuel cell and examine the legalities (I don't know if they are ADR legal).
    KB


  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Paul T's Avatar
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    Photos of the mounting of a front fuel tank.
    It would be the same for an R10 but with more room at the front of the tank. Put a booster in at the same time. As KB said the R8G front tank is the same as whats in an R4. It has a triangular shaped timber cradle with metal brackets which bolt to the lip of the tank. I'm sure you could retro fit another tank in position as well if you cant find an R4 one. Fit a fuel tap on the floor next to the choke and your away.
    R10 front fuel tank and radiator-dsc_1434.jpgR10 front fuel tank and radiator-dsc_1412.jpg

    Paul Tomlinson
    R1135 Gordini 1968.
    Jaguar XJ-C V12 1975.
    Alpine GTA- ATMO 1987.
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  4. #4
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    I've done a search for this and I can find is that people do it but there is not really a lot of info on how. So my main questions are where do you put it exactly, what tanks can you use or will I need to get something made? (You are not allowed to weld your own tanks, it comes under the same rule as steering and suspension parts) Also where do you put the filler? As I'm about the start the panel work on the R10S I acquired (it needs a lot, it may actually be more rust then metal) I have no problem with cutting a fuel door into a front guard. I guess the other option is to just have the filler in the boot (it is still called the boot when its at the front?), this is going to be a street registered vehicle so it'll need to be legal.

    There are lots on aluminium fuel cells on ebay but I'm not sure about the legality of these.

    Radiator wise is there anything off the shelf that fits? I'm not a big fan of the whole angled arrangement, it juts looks like its going to get a rock through it. I like the config BrettR's R8, I should be able to make a new front panel will a mouth in it, not standard I know. I have thought about getting a cross flow copper radiator that is the correct width and just cutting it down, even doubling it up, effectively folding it in half.

    Once I actually get started I post up my progress in the restoration section, its going to be about a 2 year project.
    I doubt it would be legal these days. 8G is obviously because thats the way it came but building one today I'm not so sure.
    Back in the 70's when my brother was rallying 16TS powered Dauphines he just used a standard R10 tank and a R16 radiator all mounted up the front in the boot, easy done and just standard off the shelf Renault parts and it was registered.

    Somehow I'm not so sure you'd get away with these days without an engineers certificate.
    David Cavanagh

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  5. #5
    Member renogade's Avatar
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    G'day
    ive recently bought a front mounted radiator its quite goodit is full alloy and mounts in the spare wheel bay. its 215,92 Ä but that is after vat i got it with the 20% off and it was 40Ä post so not bad consitering a recore of a r10 radiator cost $180 last year!
    http://www.axauto-parts.com/product.php?id_product=1251
    to get more air through the radiator innstead of using a "Fishmouth" or something simmilar the part under the grill of a r12 R10 front fuel tank and radiator-r12tr91.jpg

    i have also heard of people using r12 fuel tanks in the frount and it is legal in NSW atleast to have a fuel in the front aslong as it is afixed

    hope this helps
    Kind Regards
    Ryan

    61 Dauphine Gordini r10 running gear - restoration

    "Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... thatís what gets you"

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    My floride has a R12 fuel tank in the boot and it had to get a RWC to get rego and it was fine that way.
    Can some one confirm if it's not allowed to use a custom made or aluminium fuel tank as I'm looking at removing the Caravelle tank out of the floride but dont want to put it in the boot.
    John
    Александър Кристоф Шанел

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Paul T's Avatar
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    The Collier boys had a hot 16TS engine in their Rally car in the '80's with the radiator mounted up front in the spare wheel well and didn't have any trouble with it from memory. You can see the protection panel behind the number plate in the middle photo. Bruce also had the same configuration in his orange race car at the same time. See the first photo. The Dauphine photo was taken at Jugiong in the mid '80's and its radiator is vented through the bonnet.
    Mounted on an angle with a couple of electric fans behind should be OK.
    R10 front fuel tank and radiator-dsc_1696.jpgR10 front fuel tank and radiator-dsc_1697.jpgR10 front fuel tank and radiator-dsc_1695.jpg

    Paul Tomlinson
    R1135 Gordini 1968.
    Jaguar XJ-C V12 1975.
    Alpine GTA- ATMO 1987.
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  8. #8
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T View Post
    The Collier boys had a hot 16TS engine in their Rally car in the '80's with the radiator mounted up front in the spare wheel well and didn't have any trouble with it from memory. You can see the protection panel behind the number plate in the middle photo. Bruce also had the same configuration in his orange race car at the same time. See the first photo. The Dauphine photo was taken at Jugiong in the mid '80's and its radiator is vented through the bonnet.
    Mounted on an angle with a couple of electric fans behind should be OK.
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    That Dauphine is my brothers car, that's Steve driving. 16TS power, front rad and fuel tank, never any overheating problems and it absolutely flew.
    David Cavanagh

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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T View Post
    Photos of the mounting of a front fuel tank.
    It would be the same for an R10 but with more room at the front of the tank. Put a booster in at the same time. As KB said the R8G front tank is the same as whats in an R4. It has a triangular shaped timber cradle with metal brackets which bolt to the lip of the tank. I'm sure you could retro fit another tank in position as well if you cant find an R4 one. Fit a fuel tap on the floor next to the choke and your away.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The R4 main tank shape is the same as an R4, but the filler neck is different. Like anything this could be adapted. Many years ago I just fitted an R10 tank in the front of my R8. My 4CV has a 50L custom aluminium tank in the front that was engineer approved.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T View Post
    As KB said the R8G front tank is the same as whats in an R4.
    Also for the 8G, the Caravelle convertable fuel tank was homologated for Group 2 rallying to gain extra fuel capacity.
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  11. #11
    Member 61 Gordini's Avatar
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    Ok, so what radiator can you put in a dauphine,renault 10 where the spare wheel goes without cutting the boot floor,or do you have to cut the boot floor.

    Brett

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    When I put a front fuel tank in my 4CV my major concern was having it rupture in a smack. Mine was made & fitted by the engineer who is one of the half dozen in Tassie who finally sign off on major modifications that have received "in principle" approval. (He had to sign it off so I thought that he might as well make it.) I raised the possibility of alloy but he opined that it has a tendency to tear along weld lines & he recommended steel plate. As space was tight, it was to be a bespoke tank to maximise capacity. Anyway, he remarked that most car tanks are rather thin steel & if rupturing was my concern .... . The tank is under the wheel in the attached pics (if they worked).

    As for the radiator, mine went in the nose & I used a copper Mini one. That fitted the 4CV pefectly but is probably not suitable for your R1O. But the exhaust arrangements might be of interest. Originally I planned to exhaust up through vents in the bonnet (much in the manner of the rear engine lid). What I ended up doing was ducting from the back of the radiator down to a hole cut in the bottom of the nose just in front of the front cross member. Works well & details on request.

    Good luck with it all,
    Peter

    R10 front fuel tank and radiator-750-002-front-open.jpgR10 front fuel tank and radiator-750-003-front-open-close-up.jpg

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger!
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    In regard the radiator, have a look at the "Two new racecars in NZ" thread. If I remember correctly Frans has used a Nissan Pulsar lying almost flat. It cools his race car with oodles of power, feeds through the "fishmouth" as he calls it and no holes cut, just the mouth replaces the spare wheel drop door.

  14. #14
    Member dauphproto's Avatar
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    Hello
    I use copies of the Alpine A110 Gr 4 front radiator which fits in the space available these should be used with R16 heater fans but I use and would recommend liquid cooled motorcycle fans for their light weight and power
    I usually give the local radiator guy an old radiator for the tails, thermoswitch port etc and he makes them from scratch they are 5 cores thick
    As for the fuel tank the R4 option is probably easy and authentic not sure about crash protection though
    I use Ally tanks with senders for the gauge and part foam fill (not around the sender) these pass our roadworthieness test in the UK and are acceptable for circuit racing
    There are also "Jazz" fuel cells which are blow moulded polypropoleyne and fairly indestructable at reasonable cost fitting a gauge sender is a pain though,but not impossible have attached pic of the Gr 4 rad with sizes
    cheersR10 front fuel tank and radiator-rad-1.jpg
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  15. #15
    Member renogade's Avatar
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    G'day

    the one i mentioned earlyer is a remake of a alpine one but is full Aluminium and only weighs just under1kg and it is really well made i havent used it as of yet as im still in the process of restoring my car but it is 4 cores thick compared to the 5 that dauphproto suggested but Aluminium will work at cooling better so there isnt much difference. but for $245AUD! at my front door couldnt be happier.

    im sorry not trying to sound like im pushy or working for them i just cant pass up a good deal

    R10 front fuel tank and radiator-1251-795-large.jpg
    Kind Regards
    Ryan

    61 Dauphine Gordini r10 running gear - restoration

    "Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... thatís what gets you"

  16. #16
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T View Post
    The Collier boys had a hot 16TS engine in their Rally car in the '80's with the radiator mounted up front in the spare wheel well and didn't have any trouble with it from memory. You can see the protection panel behind the number plate in the middle photo. Bruce also had the same configuration in his orange race car at the same time. See the first photo. The Dauphine photo was taken at Jugiong in the mid '80's and its radiator is vented through the bonnet.
    Mounted on an angle with a couple of electric fans behind should be OK.
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    Great to see a pic of my old Dauphine, as David said it had R10 tank and R16 radiator in front. The tank from memory had the filler cap welded on top in the centre, to make refueling easy. The radiator was mounted in boot [not spare wheel comp] for extra front ground clearance. Cooling pipes run inside the car under navigators seat also for ground clearance, and made a great all year round heater.
    When I was in NZ visiting Frans, while his R8 race car was being built, his front tank was set back against the scuttle because of a regulation that it had to be behind the front axle line. Don't know if this applies here.

    Steve.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    When I put a front fuel tank in my 4CV my major concern was having it rupture in a smack. Mine was made & fitted by the engineer who is one of the half dozen in Tassie who finally sign off on major modifications that have received "in principle" approval. (He had to sign it off so I thought that he might as well make it.) I raised the possibility of alloy but he opined that it has a tendency to tear along weld lines & he recommended steel plate. As space was tight, it was to be a bespoke tank to maximise capacity. Anyway, he remarked that most car tanks are rather thin steel & if rupturing was my concern .... . The tank is under the wheel in the attached pics (if they worked).



    Good luck with it all,
    Peter

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    I have the same number plate as you on my 4CV, except mine is in QLD. The front of my tank is in line with the crossmember and up against the firewall, but is taller than yours, so that the spare will not fit on top, but fits in the front in the std position where you have the battery and radiator. My tank is 3mm alloy with two baffles to slow down the slosh from side to side.

    I was not very keen on the battery and tank being in the same area, as I have seen the result of doing this at the Mt Cotton Hillclimb in a 4CV, it smashed and rolled and then caught on fire at the front.

    My battery is one of the gel cell type that can be laid on its side and so is mounted where the old fuel tank lived. I have had extremely good life with it, being it is now 13 years old. It weighs 5Kg and is only 15 AH, but starts my 11.3 comp ratio 16 TS easily. Approx 200 x 130 x 70mm. So a light battery close to the starter, and able to delete about 2 metres of heavy cable.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '02 and '03 Renault Clios 1.4L
    '13 Renault Megane RS265 Trophee+

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    When I put a front fuel tank in my 4CV my major concern was having it rupture in a smack. Mine was made & fitted by the engineer who is one of the half dozen in Tassie who finally sign off on major modifications that have received "in principle" approval. (He had to sign it off so I thought that he might as well make it.) I raised the possibility of alloy but he opined that it has a tendency to tear along weld lines & he recommended steel plate. As space was tight, it was to be a bespoke tank to maximise capacity. Anyway, he remarked that most car tanks are rather thin steel & if rupturing was my concern .... . The tank is under the wheel in the attached pics (if they worked).



    Good luck with it all,
    Peter

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    I have the same number plate as you on my 4CV. The front of my tank is in line with the crossmember and up against the firewall, but is taller than yours, so that the spare will not fit on top, but fits in the front in the std position where you have the battery and radiator. My tank is 3mm alloy with two baffles to slow down the slosh from side to side.

    I was not very keen on the battery and tank being in the same area, as I have seen the result of doing this at the Mt Cotton Hillclimb in a 4CV, it smashed and rolled and then caught on fire at the front.

    My battery is one of the gel cell type that can be laid on its side and so is mounted where the old fuel tank lived. I have had extremely good life with it being it is now 13 years old. It weighs 5Kg and is only 15 AH, but starts my 11.3 comp ratio 16 TS easily. Approx 200 x 130 x 70mm. So a light battery close to the starter, and able to delete about 2 metres of heavy cable.

    My radiator is still in the rear, and I would be lost without the electric fans as even at 100Kph it cycles on every 3 Klm. I looked at Steve 750s radiator at the last Muster and do think I will go that way, only that when i modified my 4CV I said I wouldn't do anything that wasn't reversible, and cutting the front for intake and inside the boot to vent the air is going against this. Saying that, the chances of my 4CV going back to standard are very remote.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '02 and '03 Renault Clios 1.4L
    '13 Renault Megane RS265 Trophee+

  19. #19
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    R10 front fuel tank and radiator-750-001-engine.jpgR10 front fuel tank and radiator-750-006-rear-plate.jpg Hello Alan, (my apologies to the rest for a small hijack cum diversion of the thread - ignore & pass quickly on to more relevant posts)

    Yes, the 'not 750' was a deliberate copy of yours; I liked the idea & acknowledge you as source in an article on my 4CV to appear in the register's FourWord magazine. As an academic, I'd like to somehow append a footnote to the plate acknowledging you as source but the Fourword article & this post will have to suffice. Above is a rear pic of the plate (sans footnote).

    While I'm about it, I also acknowledge your very welcome advice some years back about extractor pipe diameters & lengths. I did manage to squeeze it all in (stainless steel & ceramic coated) as seen in the other pic. (I had thought that the idea of having it circumnavigate the engine was original to me but I've seen a pic of another 4CV in France with a similar setup.)

    I did want the battery in the front for weight & investigated the dry cell type but couldn't get one of the right dimensions for the very limited space I had beside the radiator shroud. And yes, I don't like the battery & tank sharing & am thinking of boxing it in with external venting. My tank is also baffled & he used 3 mm plate!! (I expected 2 mm). Talk about weight in the front!!

    On radiators: I haven't seen Steve Cavanaugh's beastie (I wonder who owns it now that Werami has sold it on) but the mini radiator (mine is 3-core) fits as if it were made for it & the fan going on is a rare event - mind you, we don't get the filthy hot weather I remember from my years in Queensland.

    The only original thing left about my 4CV is the basic body shell (minus front cross member) but after owning it in various forms since January 1968 (I'm its second owner), the last thing I'd think of doing is reverting to the original. If I wanted an original one, I'd buy one of the nice ones around.

    I'll see you at Junee I trust & you can look at it then & if you want a preview of the Fourword article then PM me.

    cheers! Peter.
    Last edited by 4cvg; 18th November 2012 at 01:44 AM.

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