365 Gearbox info please
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 365 Gearbox info please

    The early 365 gearbox in my R12 has expired. I have sourced a 365-34 box as replacement but I need the mounting hardware to suit. I am aware R17 TS-G mounts are what I need, not easy to come by. Is there any other model that used these mounts? Or would someone out there be willing to sell them?
    Russ.

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    What exactly do you need in the picture?

    And where did you find the replacement gearbox?

    I have those mounts here and could give you some sizes if you want to make some.
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  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    Everything required to mount this box into an R12.

    Found the gearbox in Brisbane it was a " I forgot I had that" moment.

    Thanks for the offer of some measurements, I may take you up on that if I come up empty.

    Cheers, Russ.

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Hmm. And how did you find the person who forgot they had that? I have been looking for a 365 (or at least a final drive/crownwheel pair) for 12 years and still empty.

    What's wrong with the one that "expired" in your 12?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  5. #5
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    except when i found one for you in < 24hrs, and you declined to buy it, right?
    Last edited by alexander; 14th November 2012 at 01:06 AM.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    He wanted 1500$ for it, Alex. And after that I had to pay shipping form the US (and possibly tax). And after that I had to assess if it was going to be any good or go the way of the other one in a few kilometers. Thank you for your help, it was just too many unknowns to risk more than 1500$. If it was here and I could look at it, it would have been a different thing. If it was new, it would have been a different thing again. Or a pinion-crown pair (new) again another thing. But this was an unknown, used, expensive quantity. That is what stopped me.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    When I put the one in my 12 I made things! From dim memory I found another unused set of mounting points in the car, and then made up from steelflat bar to join them, and Nolathane mounts from Repco.
    You will wind up fiddling with the linkaage. (Unless you are luckier than I was) The ratios between the gear stick in the 12, and the 365 are different. I originally had a worse shift than a standard 12, greater movement at the stick, so I played with ratios below the balljoint.

  8. #8
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    The linkage caused me grief as well and I had one off a worn R17 linkage to copy. The problem is that the R12 gearstick is too long at both ends. From the ball down and also ball up. I cut the top a bit and the bottom as much as possible and it was still not right and needs more work. I have an R17 one off my other car at the moment to copy from. I was just thinking perhaps when it is rebuilt it will be possible to put the selectors and end case off the early 365 back on the later box and then use your existing mounts. Rob.

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    Ove
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    [QUOTE=schlitzaugen;1118316]Hmm. And how did you find the person who forgot they had that? I have been looking for a 365 (or at least a final drive/crownwheel pair) for 12 years and still empty.

    /QUOTE]

    Which crownwheel pair do you need, an early one (365-00 -> 365-04) or a later one?
    Cheers

    Ove
    Last edited by Ove; 14th November 2012 at 08:07 AM.

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    Are you still looking for a Front wheel drive 365 CWP??
    I may be able to locate 1 in the UK
    It would not be 1500 dollars
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dauphproto View Post
    Are you still looking for a Front wheel drive 365 CWP??
    I may be able to locate 1 in the UK
    It would not be 1500 dollars

    If it is me you're asking, yes. I am.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ove;1118337]
    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Hmm. And how did you find the person who forgot they had that? I have been looking for a 365 (or at least a final drive/crownwheel pair) for 12 years and still empty.

    /QUOTE]

    Which crownwheel pair do you need, an early one (365-00 -> 365-04) or a later one?
    Cheers

    Ove

    Later. What is the difference?
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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    Ove
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    Only at the early ones the 'distance conique' has to be adjusted by fitting an washer between the bearing and 4th speed pinion. Consequently the dimensions are slightly different.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Hmmmm. I am not at home right now, so can't comment, but will be tonight and will pull the id tab of the gearbox to let you know exactly which version of the 365 I've got.

    From memory (fading at that) I would say there was an adjustment to make using shims at the back of the final drive shank (somewhere around the biconic bearing), needed to get the pinion protrusion right (crownwheel/final drive pinion mesh - this may be loosely translated as "distance conique"; a german translation would be "ritzel vorsprung"). My guess is that this is what killed my gearbox. Someone had a go at it and didn't get it right, eventually resulting in a big crunch that took teeth out of both.

    Now going by this info, you'd think my g'box is the early type, but the car is a 1976 R17G, which in Australia is a late car (early cars were R17TS, and 1976 is probably the last year these cars were available here). That is why I said mine would be a late g'box. The history of the car is unknown to me so anything is possible including a g'box swap before I bought it.

    PS. How difficult is it to find one of these boxes in Europe, Ove? I am going to be there for the festive season and wouldn't mind looking around if I knew where.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Ove
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    Is the actuation in the rear or lateral?
    The boxes pop up from time to time in 'Le bon coin'.

  16. #16
    Member dauphproto's Avatar
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    I think we have hijacked someone's thread here ,so apologies for that
    The 365 gearbox has no adjustment shims regardless of early or late front or rear wheel drive the length of the components from the 2nd gear upwards is different to everything else this is what causes me a lot of grief when grafting a set of 365 gears onto a R5 or R16 mainshaft
    It may be that someone has fitted 395 parts which look similar but it has a shim which would put the pinion way too far into mesh causing rapid failure
    I will make some enquiries about a 365 CWP and get back to you if it is from a '76 R17 it should be a later type 365/34 with the best ratios and the side exit lever. The earlier ones have a rear exit rod with the little Dog bone reverser mechanism
    cheers
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yep, side control here too, so later type box. Now that I think of it, 365-34 sounds like a familiar number (will check plate once home).

    The Haynes manual explains the pinion protrusion adjusting with the shims, so that's my source. I think the french workshop manual (MR something-something) gives a similar explanation (will check this too).

    No, mine are not 395 internals. I checked the ratios and they checked out against the book. 395 5th is taller too and quite obvious.

    There is another more subtle difference. The 395 has a shorter needle bearing shoulder for the 3rd-4th (?) cluster which means you can't swap that cluster between the two 'boxes. I have a brand new final drive set for a 395 right here. It comes from Romania where they put it in 'boxes they call "365" but they're not. Apparently they had two generations of such boxes, some with the 365 ratios, some with the 395 ratios, but both with the smaller 395 crownwheel and only two satellites. They called all of these boxes "365". The earlier of these 365 'boxes (with the 365 short ratios) use the long driveshafts, some later 365 boxes (still with 365 ratios) use a shorter driveshaft (1cm shorter, useful if swapping a 395 'box in a car designed for the 365). All their 'boxes with the 395 ratios take the shorter driveshafts.

    You see, it is then obvious, the 395 crownwheel being the same size as the common R12 352 'box (i.e. smaller) it is quite difficult to confuse it with a 365 final drive pair. The 365 crownwheel is the size of the NG3 'box (larger) so they can take the four satellite carriers. 395 crownwheels can't take that.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Checked. Both the 365 and 395 have the pinion protrusion adjusting washer according to manual MR 185 (english version) after the 3-4 cluster (before the biconic bearing). Apparently washers come in increments of .05mm from 3.5 to 4.1 mm.

    My box is a 365-34.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
    Member dauphproto's Avatar
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    For what it's worth all the drawings in MR 185 are wrong!!
    If you strip a 365 (I'm up to about a dozen now R17 and A310) there is no pinion washer NEVER and the 3rd/4th hub is energized by
    balls and not the blocker bars shown in the manual I think they printed the 395 stuff twice the attached sketch should explain it

    365 Gearbox info please-mainshaft-stopkey-detail.jpg
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  20. #20
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    A quick scan of the parts book shows USA cars do have washers. Others don't including Aust. The reason is the diff is different in USA cars, it is similar design to that in the 352 box. The 352 box also has washers.

  21. #21
    Ove
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    So you obviously never opened a real early 365, which is 365-00 up to 365-04 in Renault's world or the 365-10 in Alpine's world.
    Be ashured that this version does exist. The sliding sleeve 3/4 is equipped with blocker bars and the same type of synchronizer ring is used for 3rd, 4th and 5th gear. The group II pignons of this gearbox were used in the famous 364 Monte Carlo gearbox of the 1973 world-championship A110s and lateron in group II Renault 5 Alpine of 1978 Monte Carlo. All these gearboxes have washers to adjust the position. Pictures wanted? ;-)

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    Yep agree very early ones did for rest of world. All USA models did.

  23. #23
    Member dauphproto's Avatar
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    Guys
    You are mixing up your gearboxes a bit here
    The 365 is a unique gearbox with a different size CWP to everything else and a unique 3rd/4th speed hub
    If a 365 had a 352 diff then its not a 365
    The 364 A110 competition box is based on 353 dimentions and parts and has a unique size CWP with 8 bolts not 10
    GR2 5 alpines used the 385 type box with a 4:1 CWP (special part wish it was still available) they also used close ratio kits on the same ratios as the 365 but not for a 365 mainshaft, if they were still available my life would be a whole lot easier!!!
    The lotus version of the early 365 as fitted to the twincams has R8 G ratios on 1st and 2nd (but on 365 tapers and sizes) and has the special 365 3rd and 4th but has a standard 385/395 5th speed no wonder Lotus owners do not rate the gearbox I have even came across one with a Hewland manufactured std 5th (probably culled from a formula france box)
    I have most of renaults technical publications and mysteriously the manual for the 3 series boxes does not even mention the 365 box !!??!!
    If you want to set a box up from first principals (as i do with all my hybrids) you need to make the special tool as described in the service manual this allows you with slips and feelers to measure the distance from the pinion face to the theoretical axle centreline if you are out more than 5 thou on this then very rapid diff wear sets in if you are out more than 20 thou the pinion is toast in 50 miles
    Just to really confuse the issue in 1968 Renault standardized many components across their range silly things like the thickness of crownwheels and steering column splines this means that pre and post ,68 boxes have different size internals but all on the same bearing centres, clever and too longwinded to fully explain here. I think the development of the R16 had something to do with this and also certain failures on rear engined transmissions in competition probably provoked some strenghtening
    I will make the call on the CWP and get back to you
    Time for bed here
    cheers
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Wow. A lot more complicated, it seems.

    And no, I have never opened an early 365. But the manual 185 does not show pictures, but has the explanation in text. I will scan the relevant pages here tonight.
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  25. #25
    Ove
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    Quote Originally Posted by dauphproto View Post
    Guys
    You are mixing up your gearboxes a bit here
    The 365 is a unique gearbox with a different size CWP to everything else and a unique 3rd/4th speed hub
    Yes
    If a 365 had a 352 diff then its not a 365
    Yes
    The 364 A110 competition box is based on 353 dimentions and parts and has a unique size CWP with 8 bolts not 10
    Yes, until 1972 when they lost Monte Carlo due to weak 364 standard-gearboxes.
    But in 1973 the 364MC was used with the pinions of Renault 12 Gr II (first generation) in it.

    GR2 5 alpines used the 385 type box with a 4:1 CWP (special part wish it was still available) they also used close ratio kits on the same ratios as the 365 but not for a 365 mainshaft, if they were still available my life would be a whole lot easier!!!
    These close ratio pinions are taken from the first generation of the R12 Gr II gearbox too.
    The lotus version of the early 365 as fitted to the twincams has R8 G ratios on 1st and 2nd (but on 365 tapers and sizes) and has the special 365 3rd and 4th but has a standard 385/395 5th speed no wonder Lotus owners do not rate the gearbox I have even came across one with a Hewland manufactured std 5th (probably culled from a formula france box)
    What are the ratios of the Europe 365-box?
    I have most of renaults technical publications and mysteriously the manual for the 3 series boxes does not even mention the 365 box !!??!!
    If you want to set a box up from first principals (as i do with all my hybrids) you need to make the special tool as described in the service manual this allows you with slips and feelers to measure the distance from the pinion face to the theoretical axle centreline if you are out more than 5 thou on this then very rapid diff wear sets in if you are out more than 20 thou the pinion is toast in 50 miles
    Just to really confuse the issue in 1968 Renault standardized many components across their range silly things like the thickness of crownwheels and steering column splines this means that pre and post ,68 boxes have different size internals but all on the same bearing centres, clever and too longwinded to fully explain here. I think the development of the R16 had something to do with this and also certain failures on rear engined transmissions in competition probably provoked some strenghtening
    I will make the call on the CWP and get back to you
    Time for bed here
    cheers
    I'll post the related Renault documents when i'll be back from working to make you believe or would you prefer to come over and see by yourself the real parts no papers. ;-)
    Cheers

    Ove

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