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Thread: 1063 5 speed gearbox

  1. #26
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 61 Gordini View Post
    I don't think the box i have is from that car as my father bought the box in 1969 in Geelong.
    Ah, well, photos will tell the story I guess.

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    See also whether the housing has an aluminium identification tag under a bolt somewhere. The standard boxes all had a round tag with the gearbox model embossed on it, either on top near the cross member mounting or on the side near the end casing on the main casing.

    There'd be about a dozen of us very excited about this gearbox I imagine. Maybe only 8 come to think about it...
    JohnW

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  2. #27
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    I can only imagine what it must have been like driving one of these little cars on the same track as the big D types ,Astons and Farraris flying past ,and on 6 volt headlights through the night ,75 bhp from a 750 at 7500 on a 3 bearing crank,must have been quite something in those days .ps Jean Redel was the Renault dealer who started Alpine, ponds his mate and Claud the manufacturer/ designer/its feasable that these gearboxes could easily be pasSed over as 3 speeds as they would appear to be the same outwardly PUGS

  3. #28
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    put me down as excited

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Note the other two boxes had no reverse and I think that is correct when we took the 5 speed box to bits. There was no space for reverse. I have a document in French that explains how to take the bits out of an R5 Alpine 5 speed box and fit them to an R8 or R10 box. It has mostly photo's and is pretty straight forward. Problem is to find an Alpine box. Alain offered me one for 500 EUR plus postage once.
    I hadn't thought about reverse! As you say, not much room in there - I was only marvelling today at how narrow the first gear teeth are on the three-speed box. These aren't (weren't) boxes for everyday use.

    The 500 Euro isn't bad until you think about postage...
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
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  5. #30
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    1063 5 speed gearbox-4cv-5-sp-prim.jpg1063 5 speed gearbox-_mg_3760s.jpg

    Here are a couple of pics showing the primary shaft (left) and the cluster gears in a 5 speed box.

    The Claude designed box used an early 4CV box (Type 3). On the primary shaft, the 2 bevel gears slide on to a spline on the shaft. He was able to remove these and replace them with the 4 bevel gears in the picture.

    The gears had to be closer together for it all to fit so it meant that there was not enough room for the synchros on the secondary shaft.

    The bevel gears are in constant mesh and are engaged using a sliding dog (Is that the right term ??).

    1st is engaged by moving the secondary gear and it does have a reverse but I'm not sure how it is engaged.

    The primary shaft is from another box but this case appears to be a 316 which is the early 4 speed Dauphine G box. It has been modified for use upside-down in a mid-engined race car.

    Bob G

  6. #31
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    Bob750, the box you show sounds like a later box. Was it a genuine Claude? Renault didn't have a 4 speed Gordini box when 1063 came out. Surely that wasn't until the Dauphine G in 1958. The notes I have above show only a Renault 3 speed. I am sure the Claude I pulled down had no reverse and we could not see how it would fit as first took up the space. Or perhaps it was the selectors that couldn't fit the reverse shaft still being in place. Should have taken pictures like you.

  7. #32
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    the box i have pictures of has ,what appears to be a hydrolic line[,i was thinking oil cooler ] going into the small metal cover at the top ,cant remember anything under there but a spring and selector rods, could this line be a cable that is employed to enable reverse to be selected, as on a peugeot BE1 box ,as bobs box was from a race car this may have been done away with the plot thickens PS,i have first dibs on a twin cam head if theres one lying around .PUGS

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    the box i have pictures of has ,what appears to be a hydrolic line[,i was thinking oil cooler ] going into the small metal cover at the top ,cant remember anything under there but a spring and selector rods, could this line be a cable that is employed to enable reverse to be selected, as on a peugeot BE1 box ,as bobs box was from a race car this may have been done away with the plot thickens PS,i have first dibs on a twin cam head if theres one lying around .PUGS
    Interesting, to say the least. I understood years ago that quite a few clubman cars (of the smaller-engined variety) ran DG transaxles and the casings were sought after. That means that in Oz, there could even have been some custom-made internals around.

    I know where there is a twin cam head kit in its box, but in Paris and definitely not available! I have seen it though. Knees went weak.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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    Yes i found some pics of the twin cam head on the internet yesterday,i saved some to my computer at home.i was very surprised that that had been done back then.

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    Dont want to rave about this article but it says the owner was a dab hand at the gearbox even doing some no clutch changes ,which having seen bobs pics is not unreasonable as only 1st is crash and the other 4, dogs as described beforehand,i must admit the internals are not as crammed in as i would have expected ,Just as an aside my father had a Mazda 1300 which had a dog clutch 4 speed ,also recall seeing an early Subaru coupe with a 5 speed wonder if this transaxle could have the diff flicked over and adapted to a 4cv engine the axle tubes and trunnions would have to be adapted somehow,i had a 4cv with a douph g gearbox and rear suspension and it truely transformed the car ,the 4 speed makes a huge diference as im fairly sure 1st and top are the same and 2 and 3 are split above and below the 3 speeds second so you dont have that big down change to second, being stuck there till the top of the hill ,anxiously awaiting updates PUGS

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    I remember Norm Wray from Caravelle or Renoserve as it was back then telling me about the one he used to drive. His wife Margaret hated it because she used to go shopping in it with kids in the back. She used to complain about the lumpy engine that she kept stalling and the 5 speed box that had to be rowed through the cogs just to keep with the traffic.

    Norm however loved it and regrets getting rid of it although he couldn't remember what happened to it. When Norm passed away Margaret gave us a box of 4cv bits from under Norms bed that were labeled 1063. Can't remember what was in it, worn out clutch and other minor bits I think. Also don't know whatever happened to it, probably under my brothers bed.
    David Cavanagh

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    Gear Box Update.
    It got the better of my father so he pulled of the cover plate and it definitly is a 5 speed and has reverse as well.dad being an old retired mechanic who has rebuilt many gearbox's of all brands was able to work out if it had reverse
    photo's to follow on saturday !

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 61 Gordini View Post
    Gear Box Update.
    It got the better of my father so he pulled of the cover plate and it definitly is a 5 speed and has reverse as well.dad being an old retired mechanic who has rebuilt many gearbox's of all brands was able to work out if it had reverse
    photo's to follow on saturday !
    Great!

    Don't forget to look for an ID tag somewhere, just in case.

    Can't wait for the photos.
    JohnW

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    Wow! What a great post. I had no idea there was any such animal. Very interesting! Makes you wonder what else is just lying around in sheds or under beds. This is why I am a member of this excellent forum. Thanks guys.
    Regards
    Chopper Bob

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    Member 61 Gordini's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I have taken some pictures of the inside,certain outside pictures,the tag and the modification to the casing and corresponding internal modification which appears they have added a mount (you can see a bolt thread).JohnW i am sending these pics to your contact in France as he said he can identify the gearbox

    Brett

    1063 5 speed gearbox-gearbox-002.jpg1063 5 speed gearbox-gearbox-010.jpg1063 5 speed gearbox-gearbox-005.jpg1063 5 speed gearbox-gearbox-006.jpg1063 5 speed gearbox-gearbox-007.jpg1063 5 speed gearbox-gearbox-011.jpg

  16. #41
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    That's great Brett. So it is a dog box with constant mesh gears. And it is a BV3 gearbox as BOB750 suggested. The BV3 is the first type used on the 4CV and superceded by 1954 (someone can give more detailed info I'm sure) with the 289 type.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
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    Default 1063 5 speed gearbox

    Thanks john

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 61 Gordini View Post
    Thanks john
    It also is bolted to an alloy bell housing that looks, from memory, a bit like the transition bellhousing used on the early R8s before the split case gearboxes came out (on the R8 1100 in about 1964). So it's been used with a Sierra motor, the 5 bearing one from R8 to R12 at some time in the past.
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
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  19. #44
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    Default 1063 5 speed gearbox

    Correct John all my child hood I looked at this gearbox in the shed bolted to a 956 R8 motor that dad was building with a turbo . We still ( I use the term we as I was brought up with renaults as my son is too and now all the Renault parts books now are passed on to me)have the engine.the box has dauphine uni joints as it was intended to be put in a dauphine

    Brett

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    extremly good condition for its age ,the leading edges of the dogs and the non syncro 1st show no signs of wear at all,interesting that every second dog is a little longer and beveled ,these taking the initial engagment before being pushed right in ,seems its seen little service ,or looked after in use, thanks heaps for the pics ,did we determine if this box has reverse, and the patern of the gate PUGS PS proves you cant judge by its cover

  21. #46
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    Default 1063 5 speed gearbox

    We played with it and compared to a 3 speed,reverse works on 1 st gear as a 3 speed does.i am convinced this is the box from Norms 1063 that David
    Cavanagh spoke about.

  22. #47
    Member 61 Gordini's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    Just a final word on the Gear box, i received a reply from WEB PIECES RETRO from the pics i sent.Below is the Reply

    The gearbox on pictures you sent is an earlier 5 gears Claude assembled in a BP3 housing. After they have been assembled it with 289
    housings. Note that this modified gearbox is linked to the engine with an intermediate plate coming from a Renault 8.
    For a 4CV (or Dauphine) engine, it need to be fitted with an original 4CV (or Dauphine) plate.

    This gearbox is not synchronized (dog clutch locking) and the 1st speed engagement need imperatively to be absolutely stopped.
    Using this gearbox in modern traffic is extremely delicate, because the command grid is inverted (U lever shaft manipulation for speeds progression) and because
    the speed locking is quite randomly.
    In addition, it's very difficult to down speeds ! If you miss one, it's impossible to re-engage an other until you have stopped.
    This gearbox was design only for competition.





    Meilleures salutations
    WEB PIECES RETRO

    Brett Nuske


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    That reads exactly as I'd expect from Jean-Pierre. His father was a rear-engine Renault enthusiast, so it is in his blood!

    Sounds as if you'd want a special application before you put this gearbox into a car!

    I did note in your photo that the first gear looked undamaged (not much use?) and that the gears looked wider than standard, although the latter is possibly my imagination!

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
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    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
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  24. #49
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    That reads exactly as I'd expect from Jean-Pierre. His father was a rear-engine Renault enthusiast, so it is in his blood!

    Sounds as if you'd want a special application before you put this gearbox into a car!

    I did note in your photo that the first gear looked undamaged (not much use?) and that the gears looked wider than standard, although the latter is possibly my imagination!

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Hi,
    I obtained this information from David Wheeler of the Renault Classic Car Club (UK). Some content related to the current thread.

    "Similarly like you I have
    been into rear engined Renaults for 40+ years firstly as a "Dauphine
    man" from 1969 owning at least 7 examples of the various models that I can
    remember, then R10 Mk1+2 followed by an R8, 2x R8S and 2x R8 Gordini and 3x
    4CVs.
    The 1060 ['1063']Le Mans replica project 1949 4CV is almost finished, with Star
    wheel 9" drum brakes, a Claude period 5 speed box, a 904cc 670 05 engine,
    Gregoire rear suspension kit and so on.

    My other 4CV 1062 is simply fitted with a Dauph G 670 05 engine + 318 box with
    a side draught Weber 40DCOE and fabricated tubular manifolding.

    My tool for Hill climbing is a 1969 South African built R8Gordini with big
    brakes, special 5 speed ratios hybrid box with a Quaife LSD and an highly tuned
    R5Gordini unit, but thats another subject

    Having done just about everything with and to these cars in 40 odd years, its
    the competition history of the 4CV which fascinates me the most, as I was
    largely ignorant of the achievements for many years, until the Internet
    revealed their successes.

    Best Wishes

    Dave Wheeler"

    Regards

    David

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