What is different between Dauphine and R4 heads?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Geoff in Gully's Avatar
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    Default What is different between Dauphine and R4 heads?

    Here's one for the brains trust - given the Dauphine and the R4 both have basically the same 845cc Ventoux engine, what actually are the differences, if any, between their heads. I rather fancy putting a Dauphine Gordini head on my R4 and I wonder what fun and games I would be letting myself in for.

    I know I'll have to deal with the Gordini differences like port sizes and manifold stud position, etc.
    But what else lurks in wait for the unwary?

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Last edited by gerry freed; 6th November 2012 at 02:45 AM.
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  3. #3
    Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff in Gully View Post
    I rather fancy putting a Dauphine Gordini head on my R4 and I wonder what fun and games I would be letting myself in for.
    There is little point if it is an 800-01 845cc R4. The valves and compression ratio are the same as the (Series 2) Dauphine G head, just the Dauphine head has different waterpump stud locations. The main difference is in the camshaft timing and better breathing manifold (and larger carby) of the Dauphine G. You could go the Monte Carlo R4 route, where they were upgraded to Dauphine 1093 specs, but you still end up with the low ratio 3 speed 'box. Probably easier to find a 385 five speed and throw in the associated 5 Alpine motor.
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  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Geoff in Gully's Avatar
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    Thanks Gerry. My french is limited and Google translate is pretty ordinary - am I right in thinking 'Levee SP ech' is the amount the exhaust valve opens and Levee SP Adm the same for the inlet valve? And that A.O.A, R.F.A, A.O.E and R.F.E refer to camshaft timings?

    Geoff
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Geoff in Gully's Avatar
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    Thank you too Simon, though 'little point' has given me pause for thought. A Gordini carby I have, and I expected a manifold to suit was going to be a custom job - might as well have some extractors too. How to get the larger ports on the heads was the question - do I modify an R4 head or would it be easier to modify a Gordini head. Assuming I could find one.

    I have a four speed box to do up to improve on the 3-speed box. I do like the idea of the 5-speed and R5 Alpine motor but don't fancy my chances of finding one of those in the remote corner of the world that is Melbourne. I don't suppose anyone's got one up for grabs?

    It sounds like, whether there is much point or not, putting a Gordini head on the R4 would come down to adapting water pump mounting. This seems easier than enlarging inlet and exhaust ports.

    Geoff
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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff in Gully View Post
    Thanks Gerry. My french is limited and Google translate is pretty ordinary - am I right in thinking 'Levee SP ech' is the amount the exhaust valve opens and Levee SP Adm the same for the inlet valve? And that A.O.A, R.F.A, A.O.E and R.F.E refer to camshaft timings?

    Geoff
    Oui, levée SP echappement is the exhaust valve lift. Admission is the same for the inlet.
    This is also in French but ....
    http://www.4cv-renault.com/technique/ac/ac.html
    PMH is top dead centre
    PMB is bottom dead centre
    AOA, avance d'ouverture d'admission is the crankshaft angle from the opening the inlet valve to TDC
    AOE is the crankshaft angle between the opening of the exhaust valve and BDC
    RFA is the angle of delay after BDC before the inlet valve closes
    and
    RFE is the angle of delay between TDC and the closure of the exhaust valve.
    That gives you the definition of the cam profiles and their relative timing.
    Any other engineering vocabulary wanted? Google is not very good on engines.
    You might want this as a sticky.

    Also you might want to look at some of the French tricks in re-engineering that plague of a water cooling tube in the head. The last one that I did was a ventoux head not a Gordini but I replaced the tube with one in stainless and I think that it had slightly larger holes than the original. Hidden electrolytic corrosion is a nightmare in these heads particulary if you do not know the history of the use of antifreeze and other additives. I wouldn't fork out money for one gain until I had unbolted the water pump and looked at the corrosion on the backing plate.
    I think that Simon is dead right, the Gordini version was not just a head but a rework of the whole package. To gain the full benefits you need the carby and the special manifolds, the timing changes and preferably the different gearbox. Somewhere along the line of the Ventoux there was a change of flywheel and I understand that if you change gearboxes you have to bear in mind a tiny difference in flywheel length when specifying the clutch assembly. I haven't done this but heard of the problem through our Renault owning Club members.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 7th November 2012 at 07:24 AM.
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Geoff in Gully's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tip on replacing the water cooling tube, I'll keep that in mind.
    I reckon if I'm determined to put the 32mm carby on, it'll be easier to modify a Gordini head to fit than to modify an R4 head to have larger inlet ports. And it needs the Gordini cam as well to make it worth the effort.

    Thanks guys, Geoff
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  8. #8
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff in Gully View Post
    Thanks for the tip on replacing the water cooling tube, I'll keep that in mind.
    I reckon if I'm determined to put the 32mm carby on, it'll be easier to modify a Gordini head to fit than to modify an R4 head to have larger inlet ports. And it needs the Gordini cam as well to make it worth the effort.

    Thanks guys, Geoff
    There have been water cooling tubes for Ventoux engine heads remanufactured in Oz, so PM me if you want a contact and you can find out whether any are left or whether we've used them all.

    Pull off the bits at both ends of the head and have a good look.
    JohnW

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